Citadel Dispatch

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Software Releases and Project Updates

• 00:01:41 COLDCARD Mk4 5.0.7 - Sep 9, 2022 (bit.ly/3BClP0f)
  00:05:56 Core Lightning v0.12.0 - Aug 24, 2022 (bit.ly/3S5lr1m)
• 00:12:43 Blockclock 1.2.0 - Sep 15, 2022 (bit.ly/3BxSILG)
• 00:13:34 Spectre desktop v1.12.0 - Aug 26, 2022 (bit.ly/3qSWBWK)
• 00:16:28 Joinmarket v0.9.7 - Aug 28, 2022 (bit.ly/3qWoH3f)
• 00:17:50 NPM package for SeedXOR. (bit.ly/3C8BOFb)
• 00:25:56 RoboSats on Umbrel (bit.ly/3fcjDFa)
• 00:27:19 Ledger adding miniscript (bit.ly/3UmX4xX)
• 00:29:16 Trezor & Wasabi Join Forces To Make Bitcoin More Private (bit.ly/3BXXJOV)
• 00:30:03 Fulcrum added to bitcoinbinary (bit.ly/3DK4xBc)
• 00:37:51 btcd v0.23.1-beta, Aug 31 2022 (bit.ly/3Urjwpv)
• 00:38:04 Zeus v0.6.6, Aug 26 2022 (bit.ly/3f9vpjD)
• 00:39:24 Nunchuk implements bip21, Aug 31 2022 (bit.ly/3BZWG14)
• 00:39:57 BISQ v1.9.5, Aug 22 2022 (bit.ly/3LyPrR5)
• 00:41:01 Fountain Podcasts v0.4.8 (bit.ly/3f1ZTnH)
• 01:33:44 ATEC608A NRND (bit.ly/3xGWmBZ)
• 01:39:26 ETH merge (bit.ly/3SlgfWR)
• 01:51:21 Spiral - Private info retrieval block explorer (bit.ly/3BDto70)
• 01:56:03 US Treasury OFAC Releases Clarifications on Tornado Cash Sanctions (bit.ly/3S1PEyl)
• 01:57:05 BIP Proposal: Wallet Labels Export Format (bit.ly/3Sj5c17)
• 02:00:51 STARK - Zero knowledge bitcoin blockchain state prover (bit.ly/3C0oT8b)
• 02:03:09 Mullvad VPN hardware device (bit.ly/3f9LV3p)

Noteworthy

• 00:53:47 BIPBounty: Tax Deductible Bitcoin Bug Bounties  (bit.ly/3LMxP4l)
• 00:59:34 Fedimint grant season (bit.ly/3S32zjP)
• 01:00:00 Tether Holds Firm on Decision Not To Freeze Tornado Cash Addresses (bit.ly/3UwFgAg)
• 01:01:04 New York Digital Investment Group Announces Lightning Accelerator Project “in Wolf’s Clothing” (bit.ly/3xHo1Ti)
• 01:01:49 Tadge Dryja joins Lightspark (https://bit.ly/3SoAZNG)
• 01:11:26 Shoutout, no bullshit bitcoin - (bit.ly/3DEqB05)
• 01:12:22 LN Explorer (bit.ly/3xIYF7k)
• 01:16:34 Ledger wallets now available at Best Buy (bit.ly/3BA10mr)

Bitcoin Optech Newsletter:

• 01:24:13 Bitcoin Core #23202 extends the psbtbumpfee RPC
• 01:25:08 Eclair #2387 adds support for fee bumping and signet
• 01:25:27 LDK #1652 updates support for onion messages w/ ability to send reply paths and decode them when received
• 01:25:36 HWI #627 adds support for P2TR keypath spends using the BitBox02 hardware signing device
• 01:33:22 BDK begins verifying both ECDSA and schnorr signatures immediately after the wallet creates them

02:18:00 Events:

• OsloPlebs
• Austin Bitcoin Design Club
• BitBlockBoom
• Baltic Honeybadger
• BTCAzores
• Bitcoin Amsterdam
• The Bitcoin Collective
• Atlanta Bitcoin Conf
• Adopting Bitcoin
• Unconfiscatable
• Africa Bitcoin Conf
  

[00:00:08] Unknown:

Hello, and welcome to the Bitcoin review podcast.   The podcast where we fail at boringly reading the latest release notes and discuss project   updates.   So, this week we come back to the list. It's, I think episode 6   and people seem to really have enjoyed the the wallet expert table on episode 5.   But it's time for the list, and it's a beast of a list.   I'm very, very happy to have more folks join. And today we have, Michael Gold   Stein, known as Beatzstein,   and we have Pierre Richard,   known as Bitcoin is Savings,   and we have, our returning guest, Matt O'Dell. It's, it's nice to have you guys. Thanks for having us on Rodolfo.  



[00:01:00] Unknown:

Glad to be here.  

[00:01:03] Unknown:

You there, Matt? Wait. Matt is muted. Sorry, guys. There you go. NVK muted me, but hello. Yeah. It was the fart the the fart soundboard.   Alright, guys.   So Bedstein and Pierre are new to the show.   So, essentially, what we do here is   we go through the software list,   and we also talk about   you're gonna have to cut this off. It's so bad.   Anyways,   let's just stuff the list on the chat.   This is so good. Anyways, we don't cut anything in this show. Alright.   So I'm gonna start strong here.   So cold card mark 4 5.0.7   is coming,   probably next week.  

Enhancements is in older versions, multisig and FC import,   not offered in the micro SD when it was inserted. Now it's now it's there.   There is a new this one was a huge   thing for me. It was a new menu wrap around.   So when you get to the bottom of any menu, it goes back to the top. So you don't have to go all the way back to the top.  

[00:02:15] Unknown:

This is my favorite, by the way. Right? I've been I've been, pestering at you about that for, I think, years now. So thank you. It was driving me insane. I actually forgot about it, but then I was doing a bunch of  

[00:02:28] Unknown:

firmware testing, and I was like, hang on a second. This this needs to   no. It's like,  

[00:02:33] Unknown:

to the top of priority list. It's the single most important cold card update to date.  

[00:02:41] Unknown:

And then now we have, there's there's this guy,   a straylight orbit.   I don't know exactly what he's working on, but he's been contributing a lot of, HSM updates.   So there is a new command to ignore   HSM command over USB   by default,   that's a security improvement.   Now you can do dynamic HSM white listing   so so that you can pick the the outputs that you want to to attest   And then,   and he also added a attestation signature signature,   PSPT,   in a in a proprietary field, which is kinda cool.   And then there is a few bug fixes,   parsing a non fields in PSPT,   share single address over NFC,   and oh, this one was interesting. So   if you had used   all the trick pins,   we actually re turn over one of the slots on the secure elements, you could actually get yourself locked out.  

So but that's fixed.  

[00:03:45] Unknown:

And, it is very rare because nobody uses all the TrickBings all at the same time. I like the I like the new Trick pin menu. It's nicer. Right? It's great. There's so many different options. It's like an if then that kind of thing. Wait. So if nobody uses all the trick pins, how'd you find out about this bug?  

[00:04:04] Unknown:

Because somebody did, and he's like, listen, guys. I am not crazy. Okay? I do not. Because listen, 99999%   of the time folks just forget their PIN. Right? And then they reach out to support, and this is before even this this feature. It's like, hey, you know, can you guys help me get into my cold card? I, you know, I can't log in. I'm like, what's kind of the whole point? If you if you don't know your PIN you can't get in.   And then they could run through the 13   fails and and then it's it's bad.   So yeah. So so that's it. We we hope to release this one next week. There might be one more feature coming that's why it was not released.  

[00:04:42] Unknown:

But, but I wanted to mention that bug case. Wait. So when this guy reached out and he said,  

[00:04:47] Unknown:

I can't access it, didn't why didn't you think he was full of shit? Did you not respond like fuck you? Oh, no. No. We totally thought he was full of shit. And then we went and and of course, we always double check everything. So we went and we ran through every possible pin scenario. It's still not enough. We had to, like,   really I I I don't understand where this guy found the time   to to add as many trick pins as he did,  

[00:05:13] Unknown:

but, he did manage to find the edge case, which is kinda cool. Well, I mean, I have a MK 3 that I just destroyed because it was on the 28 days later setting. And multiple times, I waited, like, a week or 2, and then the power cut. And it restarted, and I just gave up, and I just  

[00:05:29] Unknown:

got rid of it. Yeah. That we can't help you with.   There's a lot of, you know, we always say that if you're gonna really test the the trick pins   or the break me pin, you might need to have an extra one.   Anyways, so so yeah. So that's that's fixed.   Oh and it's a we have a software fix for older bootloaders   and then there is a new bootloader coming into new production that fixes that   deep inside.   Alright. Corelightning.   0.12.0.   Web 8 in it.   So I don't know too much about core lightning.   It is in c which is   a nice thing.   But now they keep track of where your Satoshis are in real time   on lightning as historically being a bit of a challenge.  

Rusty has been   direct to node plugin has been rewritten in C, well that's always nice.   Emergency recover, a long requested feature,   originally pioneered by LNG team with some marketing text here and commits.   Static channel backups.   That's nice.   Added 0Conf and 0   serve, m one architecture support. Okay. Cool. So you can use it on new Macs.   Do you guys have any comments about core lightning or   anything related to that update?   I guess, I guess not.  

[00:07:01] Unknown:

Nope. Never never I've never used it. I'm ashamed to say. I've only ever used LND.  

[00:07:07] Unknown:

Oh, is it because, they they have,   lightning.com?  

[00:07:13] Unknown:

Actually Domains matter. No. No. It's it's way worse than that. It's because   they have Windows.   C lightning does not have Windows support. So that's that's the,   you know, terrible reason why I've only ever used LND.  

[00:07:27] Unknown:

Pierre uses Satoshi's vision.   Yeah. Exactly. So he's he's stuck on Windows. I use the He uses Windows XP. The original 2009  

[00:07:36] Unknown:

release of Bitcoin   along with LND.  

[00:07:40] Unknown:

Okay.   I assume Pierre uses Windows because of his accounting background and all the accounting software of Macs are absolutely atrocious.  

[00:07:50] Unknown:

That's right. And, of course, Microsoft Excel   Microsoft Excel cannot have c sharp plug ins on Mac OS. So,   somebody, you know, write a letter to Satya.  

[00:08:03] Unknown:

I guess, Pierre, you've actually done some,   bookkeeping stuff with lightning   as your, residency   project.  

[00:08:11] Unknown:

Oh, that's cool. That's right. Yep. So it was it was, it is an Excel plugin,   that communicates with your LND node   and populates your Excel spreadsheet   with all of the LND data.   And it also allows you to pay invoices from within Excel.   And so that way for business users who, you know, they might have, like, a list of a 1,000 invoices they need to pay for whatever reason, they could just, you know, pay it from the comfort of their spreadsheet.  

[00:08:39] Unknown:

That's really cool. But I'm just imagining   Excel security   on the Windows   talking to the node.  

[00:08:49] Unknown:

Well, look. I mean, if   Yeah. Get chat meme. Yeah. I I also have an Excel plugin that connects to a cold card. Oh, shit. No. No. No. I'm kidding. No. Cold card says no.  

[00:09:03] Unknown:

Cold card says, please put condom on.  

[00:09:07] Unknown:

No passwords.  

[00:09:10] Unknown:

No. I'm kidding. You know, with those nowadays can be reasonably secured. Not not in a server, but How much value are you securing? Right? It this I I come back to this often. It's like Exactly. If it's just a small amount of money, you can use a browser extension. You can use a mobile app. If it's your life savings,   don't do that. You know, be be more secure than that. Yes. Don't put your lights life savings on lightning, period.  

[00:09:34] Unknown:

No. I keep it on MetaMask.   Yeah. MetaMask  

[00:09:37] Unknown:

with my NFTs. No. Now it's stuck. You can't spend it. It's perfect. It's Ethereum now has ultrasound security.  

[00:09:44] Unknown:

You can't spend your money. LND does not own lightning.com  

[00:09:47] Unknown:

yet. Oh, which one is it? Salesforce owns lightning.com.  

[00:09:51] Unknown:

Oh, nice.  

[00:09:52] Unknown:

Oh, that's why that's why,   Pierre ended up in proprietary software.  

[00:10:01] Unknown:

Yeah. I I hope that, someone will acquire Salesforce and, to put, you know, a proper landing page on lightning.com.  

[00:10:08] Unknown:

I manage my channels with the Salesforce CRM.  

[00:10:13] Unknown:

I use SAP.  

[00:10:16] Unknown:

That's the future. I mean, that's that's a world we're moving towards,   but,  

[00:10:21] Unknown:

we're still very early. You know what's funny though? What was it? I think I don't know if it was SAP or Xero   that actually added Bitcoin,   capabilities to their system by, like, 5, 7 years ago. It was way back then,   just so you could because, you know, Bitcoin, if you're gonna have like   decimals,   it's a lot of decimals. Right? And none of this accounting software could handle it.  

[00:10:49] Unknown:

That's the standard.   That's right.  

[00:10:51] Unknown:

No. I still prefer BTC. I I just can't. My brain cannot go to SATs.   I think you should just do binary. It can do ones and zeros right on the screen and problem resolved.  

[00:11:01] Unknown:

Is there gonna be like a y two k situation with, all these companies trying to move   to Bitcoin?  

[00:11:08] Unknown:

No. I I think so   back in the day, most software was not, like, very virtualized from the actual sort of logic of the programs and, like, modern sort of stacks for software and languages,   abstract,   enough   of the actual stuff you're trying to do from   how the software is made,   you know, so you can protect your integers and all that stuff.   Yeah. No. I I think I think I think, engineering for software is is greatly improved in that sense, But also became shit because everything should be embedded. But that's a whole different story.  

[00:11:47] Unknown:

Yeah. That that's a good point though. But, I guess this is also what, Michael Sailor is specifically looking to do with MicroStrategy.   Yep. Help all these dinosaurs,   upgrade.  

[00:11:59] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, the thing you know, apparently, they they have, their own custom,   accounting software. And it's funny because at Quaintite, we also have our custom accounting,   software for the store that then plugs into the, you know, it has to interface with QuickBooks that accountants like to use.   But, yeah, like once you have your own, like, accounting needs, especially with Bitcoin, you kinda like you don't want to use the old way of doing accounting.   You really want to sort of like have your Bitcoin accounting and then you sort of transfer everything into USD denominated   because that's really what the government cares about.  

Anyways.   Yep. So,   making accounting cool again. That's Bitcoin for you. Bitcoin fixes everything.   Alright. Next, Block Clock 1.2.0   was released yesterday. It's a small release.   Now the micro,   it's the same binary for both which is kinda cool. So we now support the Block Lock Micro,   and,   and, there is a new version for the mini.  

[00:13:05] Unknown:

Wait. Let's see that again. It's fucking tiny. Yeah.  

[00:13:08] Unknown:

Look at that. It's just like the Bitcoin price right now. Fucking tiny.   So yeah. And, you you don't need to update,   your Block Lock Mini. This update is kind of optional,   not much for it. It just wanted to consolidate to a single   binary so there is less stuff to be reviewed.  

[00:13:28] Unknown:

You skipped 2 other updates, are you aware of that?  

[00:13:32] Unknown:

Oh shit, yes. By scrolling happened here. Spectre desktop   version 1.2.1.12.0.   They added faucet   xfun,   extension.   Oh, that's   Stefan. And, DevTools adding full Python access via JavaScript for developers.   So I guess you can automate things now. That just sounds   horrifying. Yes. It it does. I got chills.   Python through JavaScript. Yay.  

[00:14:03] Unknown:

Right into your Excel plugin.  

[00:14:06] Unknown:

It's a Sharp on Windows.   Amazing.   Do you guys remember that elect,   the the the Chrome of 0 day vulnerability that happened recently?   A lot of I don't know about Spectre, but a lot of this this, the UI on this multi platform systems is essentially Chrome   wrapped, right?   So technically all this software, if they're using whatever, if it is Chrome and that version could have been vulnerable to this. They call it Electron, right? Yes. So money poof and it's gone.  

[00:14:43] Unknown:

That's why I used Qt for the node launcher,   to make an cross platform without using Electron. Is that how it's pronounced? I don't know. Q t, cute. I I've never I've only ever read it. So I don't know how it's pronounced. This is the first time I heard that. I'll call it cute going forward. I kinda dig it. So, yeah, I don't QT is great. The problem with QT is that  

[00:15:05] Unknown:

it it has this   because   the way they're trying to leverage the system for UI,   they have this,   relative spacing for things. It's like a relative unit for UI.   It's very, very hard  

[00:15:20] Unknown:

to get stuff to work. It is. Yeah. I mean,   my thing was, like, I just gotta keep it as simple as possible because if I add anything, it's just gonna be a total mess to deal with. That's right. Have you guys used Kivy? I always wanted to find we we've been trying to find a Kivy person. Kivy is essentially  

[00:15:39] Unknown:

a cross platform Python based   wrapper. It was really nice.   And like unit Unity, you sort of like just it's like, you know, like a a pixel world. Right? So you actually draw the stuff which means a lot more work too.  

[00:15:54] Unknown:

Can you remind me what that Chrome zero day was?  

[00:15:58] Unknown:

I can't remember the name of it, but it was recently. It was maybe a month or 2 ago.  

[00:16:03] Unknown:

But, I mean, before we fud Specter, most people use it in, like, watch only mode. They they don't keep their keys on Specter.  

[00:16:11] Unknown:

Yep. No. It's not meant to be FUDed. It's just meant to be upgraded.   Please upgrade.   Spector is great. It really is. And it's the first one   they did a proper   wrapper for Bitcoin Core,   on the same desktop, which is really nice.   Alright. Join market.   The one and only true coinjoin implementation.   Actually, I've heard that no other coinjoin implementations actually exist. So it's version 0.9.7.   So they improved,   so the Tumblr algorithm fix and cycling, this is an audible,   networking   no, reworking of the Tumblr algorithm mostly motivated by finding an error which was causing failure   for people that tried   to use more than default numbers mixed up. Anyways, long explanation here.  

Disallowing UTXOs   with confirmed spans,   new script to calculate   Fidelity Bond Values. Fidelity Bonds are really cool.   New display of available balances.   RPC API updates.   They added a schedule status and session endpoint.   Tor updates.   QT changes now allow access to the XPub information in the QT interface.   Installation,   the installation now will automatically   check release GPG signatures for libsodium. Oh, that's nice and Tor.   So that's cool.   Everybody should try join markets if they want to coin joint   over Tor.   NPN package,   TypeScript for seedxor. Oh yeah. So somebody did created an implementation for seedxor   in, TypeScript.  

So,   that means you could probably now very easily integrate CDXR   on your,   like, React JS   app or any sort of JavaScript based,   wallet. Do you guys use SeedXor?  

[00:18:17] Unknown:

Nope. I I've played with it a bit though.  

[00:18:20] Unknown:

It is probably one of the most underrated   tools available to Bitcoiners.   So much easier than multisig. You get a lot of benefits that are similar.  

[00:18:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're not   if you're not ready for multisig yet,   you know, this greatly greatly derisks   your single sig   seed backup.   And this kind of encryption can it it it's nearly impossible to sort of like have a backdoor because you're just like soaring 2 values together. And you can recover without a computer, with paper.  

[00:18:56] Unknown:

Right. Right. Although, you've you've recommended having,   like, the the original seed still   as a backdrop somewhere. I mean So there is there is still that that issue.  

[00:19:08] Unknown:

Well, it depends.   So I like to say that when I'm, like, suggesting to people in, say, a podcast or whatever just because I don't know where they are at with knowledge.   But in this pod, it's a little different. I mean, most of the people who who get through this list normally already know some of this stuff. Right. So, you know, if you have high availability, say for example, you already have a few micro SD backups and, you know, so you have   some means of of recovery in case you lose a part, I I think you're you're more safe,  

[00:19:38] Unknown:

or maybe you have split funds. So what I do for newcomers now is I've just skipped the step of, like,   saying, you know, use a ledger or a treasure or something for ease. I say, just get a cold card. And then when I onboard them onto the cold card, I tell them to keep a micro SD backup and then 2 pieces of steel,   one of each part of the seed XOR.   Yep. And then you just put them in 2 different places. And then for 99% of people, I feel like  

[00:20:04] Unknown:

that's a pretty fucking fantastic setup. I mean, it is. Right? Because, you know, the the microSD backup, if you especially if you're using the proper industrial grade stuff, like,   you're pretty safe,   especially if you have 2 of those. And then if you have a house fire, you go find your 2 metal backups. Right? Like it's it's   the the problem with the seed, especially if they don't have a passphrase is that, you know, somebody's gonna end up seeing that at some point even accidentally. Right? Or   like a wife finds the seed   the seed plate on the floor somewhere in the house, takes a picture and sends a text message. Honey, is this yours?  

And then poof, money gone.   And, yeah. We we're gonna we're we're working on   trying to add, 12, 12 word support as well for CDXR.   Like, unfortunately, a lot of   newcomers and whatever, they don't feel as   as willing to work through 24   holes, like, to punch 24 times 4.   It's a lot of punching in that also,   people have asked. We were trying to make it happen.  

[00:21:12] Unknown:

I think of it as a, sort of,   like, a meditative practice. Yes.  

[00:21:18] Unknown:

Yeah. You know?   If you don't have some of these in your desk, you know, you're not a real Bitcoiner.  

[00:21:25] Unknown:

Yeah. Some of these things, I I think of it like,   you know, the, the raspberry pie debates that people are having about nodes.   It's like, for me, I just don't want it because I, I, I have not seen a beautiful raspberry pie setup.   So even if it works, it's just like, you know, my node is something that is important   and I think it should be treated with that sort of like sacredness.  

[00:21:49] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Raspberry   raspberry pies are a shit coin.   Hey. Imagine paying $200   for that   piece of crap that is completely closed source from Broadcon.  

[00:22:00] Unknown:

I think I saw that. I think they're working on some more open sourcing of,   some firmware you can throw on it. I feel like I saw a headline for that the other day.  

[00:22:11] Unknown:

I don't know. Knowing Broadcon, I I doubt that you ever find   a way   around,   their crap. Like, that that's like a   a a true true, like, bad actor in the hardware space, man. Those guys are are just brutal.  

[00:22:26] Unknown:

Yeah. So on the c deck store,   I think you've   kind of been against it. But there is that method of creating a 2 of 3 seed XOR.   Yes. And, I went through the process of doing it just to cause I wanted to see that magic. Because it it uses some weird set theory,   to be able to construct this thing, and it worked. And it was really kinda magical thing to   to work through it. You know, it took some time, but   the idea that you could do that 2 of 3 by hand,   was was very, very cool. And it really just shows the power of   even these very, very basic   crypto primitives.  

In fact, it's the most basic crypt crypto primitives that do the best job because it's literally just XOR, which is what, you know, like, a one time pad has always been, which is, you know, the perfect security,  

[00:23:18] Unknown:

structure given you have a long enough key and all of that. That's right. No. I mean, one time pad is fantastic. When you think about when these things came about. Right? Like, you have, like, World War 1, World War 2. These guys trying to, like, deal with stuff through   completely interceptible   comms. Right? They used to have vinyl with the full key, and they would pay play the vinyl on both sides,   you know, like, to get the the messaging and encrypted across. It's it's just pretty cool.  

[00:23:46] Unknown:

Maybe at Bitcoin meetups, we should be, like, coming with binders full of one time pads to, There you go. To hand each other.  

[00:23:54] Unknown:

You know, I imagine that they would trust nothing else for the nukes in in in in any country that has nukes.   So yeah. So that's that's really cool.   You know, I doubt that we're gonna support that   that multi multi sig, that, multipart,   CDXor just because it's the complexity increase and everything else. Just use multi sig if you get into that level.  

[00:24:18] Unknown:

Right. Right. I just I'd like that it exists,  

[00:24:20] Unknown:

and I and I'd liked the practice of it. I wish there was a BIP for it or something. So, you know, maybe I think we're gonna probably submit a BIP for cDEXOR so maybe it gets a little bit more, more views.  

[00:24:32] Unknown:

Just so that we can get more people kinda looking at that complexity   and standardizing it? Or  

[00:24:38] Unknown:

no. I mean, just because it's cool.   It should exist somewhere, like, you know, properly annotated and stuff. I like to see more wallets, like, supported natively.  

[00:24:48] Unknown:

Be nice.  

[00:24:49] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I mean, I I am a I'm a true,   Shamir secret hater.   I think, I think it's, too much complexity   to when you get to that complexity and it's all custom solutions, you should just use multisig.  

[00:25:04] Unknown:

I have a random question for you because I was too lazy to test it out myself. With BIP 85,   you can choose   12 words, 18 words, 24 words.   Are those are all are those all different wallets?  

[00:25:19] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:25:21] Unknown:

Like, it doesn't generate the same wallet. Right? That's not possible. No. No. So no. It does. So for each index,  

[00:25:28] Unknown:

you can export 1 of each.  

[00:25:30] Unknown:

So if I do an 18 word seed versus a 12 word seed, it's the same set of addresses?   No. Different wallet. Okay. That's what I thought.  

[00:25:38] Unknown:

Yeah. So so just imagine, like, you have an index. Right?   And then for each index, you can have one of each type of export.   Gotcha. And they will be all different secrets.   Anyways, for anyone, interested in Seedexor,   check out CDXR.com.   There is a domain for it.   Okay.   Robosats,   now available as an app on Embro.   Does anyone here use, Robosats? It's a pretty cool project. I I am not super familiar with it, but I keep on hearing interesting things about it.  

[00:26:10] Unknown:

I tested it once. It's a very clean interface. It's nice that you can just use Tor Browser with it.  

[00:26:16] Unknown:

So it's like a it's like a an exchange. Right?  

[00:26:19] Unknown:

Yeah. It's mostly gift cards.   Gift cards for sats over lightning.  

[00:26:24] Unknown:

Gift cards are the original stablecoin?  

[00:26:27] Unknown:

One of the companies I consulted for gave me, like, a $50 bullshit gift card that I converted on Robosats to sats.  

[00:26:35] Unknown:

Are you talking about the CoinKite gift cards?  

[00:26:37] Unknown:

No. Actually, a lot of people do use the CoinKite gift cards. Your quasi stable coin over there? That's right. We we are a full mint.   No. I use it in Amazon. People like the Amazon gift cards. I don't know. It's because then they can sell to somebody else,  

[00:26:51] Unknown:

very it's high highly salable.   Probably more than the US dollar.  

[00:26:58] Unknown:

So basically, this is where I go if I ever get a gift card that I don't  

[00:27:02] Unknown:

want. Yeah. It's a good place to dump gift cards for sets.  

[00:27:05] Unknown:

No k y c. Beautiful. Mind you, you're gonna lose a pretty penny on the   on the exchange rate per dollar unit on the card. Well, if you keep keep holding the gift card, you're gonna lose that money too. But there is that too. I mean,   Ledger adding Mini Script soon, so that's cool. It's nice to see Ledger   because I've been bantering them,   privately for for years. First about the node thing and then about supporting PSPT, which they added both. And now, the mini the mini script stuff is is kinda cool that they're getting there. We don't support that yet. We do support output descriptors   on codecard,   but we don't support mini scripts yet just because there's no market demand yet, and it's a lot of work. So   but it's just nice to see   players of that size   sort of really pushing Bitcoin stuff instead of the Shecoin stuff.  



[00:27:57] Unknown:

Is there a Python implementation of ManyScript?   I don't know. Because I assume that that would also have to be added for you guys to to handle. Right?   No. No. No. Are you guys could you guys use just the Rust version?  

[00:28:10] Unknown:

No. We would just   we would just write because it's just output descriptors.   Right? It's just a more complex version of it because output descriptors were not complete.   So, so yeah.   So one cool thing because I was trying to to think right, because, you know, hardware wallets don't are not wallets. Right? They're just signing devices.   So   they don't really use   the descriptors themselves. Right? They're just exporting it. So I was trying to think why would you add mini scripts to because you can just do the output descriptor version of that.   But then   one cool thing is that you could then then the Hadoop   can be aware   of   the of the addresses, right, to double check that you own the addresses   before,   before you you let us sign. So it goes,   don't sign it. You don't own this change address,   which is, that's one attack vector there.  



[00:29:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I think that'd be good.  

[00:29:15] Unknown:

Yeah.   Trezor and Wasabi joined forces to make Bitcoin more private.   I'm a little biased on this one, but, I have I have I have opinions. Why why don't we, do you guys have opinions about,   WhatsApp integration inside Ledger Suite?  

[00:29:31] Unknown:

Trezor? None at all. No. My my my opinion is just that, this is certainly going to,   wrestle some Jimmy's somewhere.  

[00:29:41] Unknown:

Right. I mean,   I I think I mean, aside from the coin joint implementation war,   the I I I'm not sure how I feel about a a   a nonphysically secure device over USB,   doing this live on the Internet.   Somehow it just   it just makes me feel iffy.   But it's cool to see.  

[00:30:04] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah. I noticed, we we skipped a thing about fulcrum,   being added to Bitcoin binary. And if I remember correctly, it's not there's there's not a proof yet,   but it's on there.   And,   I I've I've recently given Fulcom a try, and, I was impressed.   My my problems with it are merely that, like,   the the devs, I guess, they're a little more agnostic to,   particular coins.  

[00:30:33] Unknown:

They're big blockers.   Yeah. The big blockers make the best Electrum implementations because they need to handle more data. Yeah. They have a lot more data to handle, so they thank you.  

[00:30:43] Unknown:

So I guess, yeah, that's the that's the real, blessings we received from Roger Ver and   everyone else was, more performant.  

[00:30:51] Unknown:

Dead and airdrops.  

[00:30:53] Unknown:

Like, before before fulcrum,   the best the most efficient Electrum implementation was Electromax, which was also big blockers. That's right.  

[00:31:01] Unknown:

Yeah.   And, on Bitcoin binary, I almost forgot. So   for people that don't know, bitcoin binary dot org   is a place where you can submit,   your own proof of   reproducible build for projects,   but we also built a a bot there that builds on video and then tweets the video   of building that that project and Fulcrum does build.   I mean, I haven't reviewed their project myself, but the   the the build does build and checks. So that's kinda cool. So, if anyone has any projects that are reproducibly built,   we we take pull requests and we would   be more than happy to list it   and, and build for everybody.  



[00:31:50] Unknown:

So, like, what what what does that mean with, like, fulcrum? Like, what would fulcrum need to   hit that mark?   Because, like, if I just made a video, it's like, I could just I could write a script that goes through the whole build thing and then prints out the   shawesome that people are looking for.   So so this is this is the beauty of of, reproducible builds. Right? It's about a web of trust.  

[00:32:14] Unknown:

So   people are trusting that we   are running the   the the GitHub code that we have there on the GitHub actions   to build   fulcrum in the way that we claim to build. Right? Can you take that at face value? Probably not. But we are doing this if somebody submits their own and hosts their own video on YouTube,   right now it's 2,   now you have Fulcrum making their claim on their website, that's 3,   Right? And maybe you double check. I mean,   you know, like the efforts to   to coerce   all these people,   you know, because of one extension,   it's kinda funny, right, but it becomes kinda pointless. So   that's the idea. It's just about raising   that cost of attack so high that it becomes just silly for you to try to,   you know, break into GitHub, change our,   our code without us seeing it on GitHub,   right, and and running it and, you know,   so so yeah. It's just if more people do it, you just gain that web of trust,   exponential safety.  



[00:33:21] Unknown:

Right. So when I if if I were to get any of these pieces of software and I download it and I compile it myself and build and show that it has a SHAW sim, The value of me doing that is the fact that it's it's bit sting, and people   think for some reason that I have, something valuable to add. And so   they would they would say, oh, okay. Well, he is getting the same,   shot value as me, and I kinda like that guy.   And these other people that I like too that I I think they are good at handling Bitcoin software. They're coming to the same shots too.   They would all have to be colluding or diluting each other,   to have come to the same SHOS value unless that was the real one. That's correct. And it's very similar to to PGP's  

[00:34:08] Unknown:

web of thrust. Right? They sign each other's signatures   in person ideally.   So so this is very similar, right, like you're essentially making GitHub commit, right, which is a point in history   that it's stuck in a Merkle tree in a blockchain   and, you're essentially claiming that he did what he did. Right? So there is a reputation   component to   it, and then there is essentially   a a proof set. Right? So with more proofs in a set that that sort of claim the same thing.  

[00:34:38] Unknown:

Yeah. I guess you could g p g sign the the commit as well. That's true. Really   hardcore.   I think that does bring up, like, a a kind of broader thing about cryptography is like,   in in a lot of cryptography, it's not that the   the math is in and of itself   meaningful.   It's it's being able to create,   pieces of data that are socially useful.  

[00:35:06] Unknown:

Yeah. You have interdependence.   Right?   And provable interdependence.   It's   it's it's it's amazing how, like, a very simple non dramatic   version of software testing. Right? So essentially, like, we we don't do the negative.   Right? I don't wanna get into sort of spats of projects and stuff. If they build, then great. Then we list. If they don't build, then they're not listed. Right?   So like   essentially you just take your inference from saying, hey, this project's built, therefore I'm gonna use these. We don't have to like get into drama or shit on other projects or anything. It's just,   you know, you build or don't build.  

I I like this this mold a lot better because there is other sites out there that sort of review,   bitcoin projects and then they end up in this griefed   sort of like problem where they don't have necessarily the budget   to do things but then they essentially   grieved projects saying hey, if you don't give me money I'm not gonna change, I'm not gonna spend the time to change   the fact that I was not able to build. It creates this terrible,   terrible incentive set   for for the project. It's   it's horrific. And I wanted to solve that problem because it was pissing me off that just incompetent people couldn't build my projects where everybody else could.   And I figure a lot of people felt the same way. So, hey, let's expand that pie and do that.  

I I'm calling this open security,   and   we have another project coming that's essentially a watchtower for,   PGP signatures.   Sorry, like   signed binaries   on Bitcoin projects. So we're gonna we're still sort of it's a side project so it keeps on being bumped, but we kinda got halfway there   where, we're gonna be watching   all the Bitcoin binaries, like Bitcoin project binaries on their sites,   right, to see if it changes. And if it changes, does it if it matches   the signature of the of the   of the maintainer.   And if it doesn't, we go like,   you know, like computer. It's like, it doesn't match. Don't download. Don't download.  

Or go check or whatever. Right?   I think these very tiny little things are so helpful.  

[00:37:27] Unknown:

How many side projects do you have?   There's always a side project. It's,   I don't know. It's impressive.   Yeah. I I I love it. You're you're building, like, a whole, you know, Bitcoin security empire.   Bitcoins. That's funny. Yeah. Full stack, like,   it's fantastic.  

[00:37:46] Unknown:

But, you know, it's one of those things that somebody's gotta make it. Right?  

[00:37:49] Unknown:

Just skip b t c d too.  

[00:37:52] Unknown:

Okay. So b t c d beta   has   one, entry   for a commit, so I am not reading it.   They have a new version. It stays at that.   Okay. Zeus.   Zeus version 0.6.6.   New feature, reproducible builds.   Yay.   Guess where it's gonna end up? On bitcoin binary dot org. Do you guys use Zeus?  

[00:38:21] Unknown:

I have before.  

[00:38:22] Unknown:

No. I use, Phoenix.  

[00:38:25] Unknown:

You don't use Zeus with your own node,   up here?  

[00:38:28] Unknown:

I use Phoenix.  

[00:38:30] Unknown:

But not with your own node. Right? Phoenix is, I have no idea. You use it   as, like, a spending wallet?  

[00:38:36] Unknown:

I I don't know.   It it just works.  

[00:38:40] Unknown:

Someone's Excel plugin somewhere is running that thing. Yeah. It's an Excel plugin.  

[00:38:45] Unknown:

I am on I am on the on the hosted,   lightning bandwagon too.  

[00:38:50] Unknown:

Well, anyway, Phoenix is a great spending wallet. It's probably the best spending wallet, like mobile first wallet. Really? Asus is is Outside out. Pretty much in a league of its own when it comes to using your own node at home or wherever. So it's did. Evan Evan rebuilt the UI, right, of, Zeus too? The UI is fantastic. I use it I I use it primarily with my podcasting 2 point o node,   and I use it primarily to like, when I'm drinking with Bitcorners to show them how cool it is that the sats just constantly coming into the node.   But the UI is fantastic now.  



[00:39:25] Unknown:

Now,   let me just find here for Nunchuk. I have a small update here, but that's not a release.   So they implemented BIP 21.   Let me see if I can find their releases.   I can't remember where they are. Well, anyways,   so they implemented BIP 31 21. I think there is no   recent software release yet, so wait for the next show to hear more about Nunchuk.   Bisc version   1.9.5.   The server release introduced a new p two p status indicator as Bitcoin Core   version 23 compatibility   and makes bug fixes and minor improvements.   So is Bisq still big? I haven't looked into Bisq in a while.  

[00:40:21] Unknown:

I assume you guys don't use I've never used it. No. I feel like the importance of the importance of bisque is that it just exists. So if you absolutely need to use it, it exists.   But I I feel like it's   very rarely someone's first choice.  

[00:40:37] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, you know, decentralized   exchanges   are are kinda like very high friction. Right?  

[00:40:43] Unknown:

I like well, the entrance of Robosats is a perfect example, and now Peach, where it's like, if you can if you can get away with a little bit of centralization   for convenience and better UX,   people are gonna choose that first. But if they get shut down, then Bisq still exists.  

[00:41:00] Unknown:

Cool.   Fountain podcast version   0.4.8.   Hot and fountain discover   discoverability,   more discoverability,   faster boosts, faster time stamping, time stamp clips,   and ticked away your referrals.   Yeah. So fountain just, like, the the app was a bit sort of chugging   a bit. It was clunky. Yeah. It's yeah. It seems to be getting better.  

[00:41:30] Unknown:

The the hot on fountain, I feel like is a big   it it's it seems so obvious, but it it is a big change because,   you know, usually with, like, Apple Podcasts, like, you have the top charts. Right? And the podcasters are obsessed with the top charts, and it's just a completely   closed system. No one really knows how the top charts work.   The top charts that Fountain implemented is straight up how many sats has that episode received,   which can still be gained like a podcast. You can send sats themselves,   with sock puppet accounts or whatever, but   it it seems like a a massive step up improvement in terms of, like, okay. Here's actual value that's determining  

[00:42:11] Unknown:

the charts. You know, podcast 2.0 is gonna happen anytime now. I made a whole $20 for all   the episodes of this show.   I actually I   I just I just don't I I fail to see how podcast 2.0,   takes over. I I'm a fan of ads.   Put the ads in. I hate them. I skip them.   Everybody wins. You know? It's like a lump sum for the producer, and and I don't think we're gonna go away from ads anytime soon.   But,   but,   the fun though of knowing that there's people who like your show and sort of, like, wants to, like, sort of send you some sats to let you know that you liked it It's really cool. It's like getting a gift. Right? It's like somebody sends you a bottle of whiskey or something when you do something nice for them.   That I love.  



[00:43:02] Unknown:

I mean, I I look at it the same way, like I said, with Bisk, which is, you know, this idea that that people have to be holding to the ad model is is is like corruption at its core. Like, if you look at, like, the issues we have with corporate media,   I mean, the issues are that their business model is is their ad partners.   Right? So if you're starting a new podcast, the fact that you have the ability to get direct funding from your audience with with minimal   middlemen   is a massive step improvement, and it's just, like, no very few people use lightning right now. Right? So it's it's gonna take some time.   But I could see a world in 5 years, 6 years where some new person comes out with a podcast   from some random place in the world.  

Maybe they have a low cost of living and they're able to just immediately start receiving funds directly from their audience. That's empowering.  

[00:43:54] Unknown:

I mean, listen. You know, in Ramallah, $20 will go a long way. So,   you know, they can have a podcast that from from a place where they have capital controls   and   and do well.  

[00:44:07] Unknown:

I'm pretty skeptical of any of these, like, sort of   micropayments   models. I I know someone was on Marty's podcast arguing that, you know, maybe Nick Zaba was wrong about,   mental accounting costs   with, micropayments.   But then the sort of solutions   that were being,   put forward, how it like, it gets overcome, We're really just kind of validating Nexavo by saying that people would move towards a subscription model where you say, okay. Well, I'm I will give up to this amount,   and let the computer just send according to that. And it's like, you might as well just pay the, you know, I don't even know what Netflix cost per month now, but they have their monthly cost.  

[00:44:50] Unknown:

Yeah. Businesses are gonna have a seriously hard time doing any kind of subscription   with Bitcoin   because Bitcoin is push not pull.   And if there is one thing we know about customers is that unless you take it without their permission every month,   they're not gonna give it to you.  

[00:45:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Maybe that's a good thing, though. Maybe that means that you're gonna have to actually   to continually   give them value as opposed to I mean, I   because   how how many people yeah. I mean, there's there's also, like,   gym gyms   are notorious for basically doing this. They get you they get you hooked, and then you never go to the gym again after January is up. And you still you still pay, which is why you should always use a disposable,   card for things like that just in for anything   something like that you should stick with. But, like, anything that   you don't know for sure if you're gonna stick with,   because these people can also then be crooks with it where it's like,   you know, even after you say, I no longer want to be a part of this gym,   there's a big problem with, companies like that still pulling money. So on the other hand, if you have a subscription model, but you have to actually say, yes, I want to give this person $5 this month. Like, you know, imagine imagine an app where it's your monthly bills and it lists all the stuff and it has some stats about it's like Approve. Approve. Approve. Approve. Approve.  

To 20   hours   of,   Bitcoin review,   which is only 1 episode,   but you listen to 20 hours. Are you willing to give $5 again? And you just go down the list of the different stuff that you subscribe to, and it kinda gives you those stats and you say yes or no. I would imagine that   you'd get way more,   value out of the the content. And I would it would send a good,   you know, signals to creators   to continually improve and and all of that.   So I think we're we're the sort of podcast this is me. I have no experience. I have not set sets. I have not received sets for, like, for for podcasts or anything.   What   what I think   is valuable about it   probably in my own head is it's a good sort of onboarding mechanism. It's like, hey. I'm gonna check out this podcast.  

I'll give it, you know, however, you know, 2¢ per per minute. I don't know what the going rate is.   But I'll I'll give it a little bit of money just to to be nice.   And I wanna check it out. And then once you've done that, you can see, okay. How much did I actually value this thing? Okay. I'm gonna start giving it this amount per month. So it's like a way to, like,   onboard you onto a subscription model.  

[00:47:28] Unknown:

Personally, I think McDonald's can replace that by just making an ad. Are you loving it? And that's it.  

[00:47:35] Unknown:

That's fair too.   Yeah.   Podcast apps too. In instead of all this, you know, podcast apps could do a better job of   figuring out ad blocking. Like, use   AI to figure out where the ad is so that you can,   I I've seen this in a few podcasts   in I guess, I use Overcast? I think it's a fantastic app.   And I've seen some podcasts have chapters and it actually cut off where the ad is. And you could just,   it would automatically skip to where the ad is over. So I could imagine you could build AI   that somehow, you know, recognizes this,   and and disabled to to skip over.  



[00:48:17] Unknown:

I mean, maybe somebody creates an inverted system where,   essentially as a sponsor,   I give a budget,   say,   to Apple Podcasts. Right? And then Apple Podcasts   finds   the best audiences for my ad dollars,   right, and somehow, I don't know, gets the creators I don't know. Well, so Fountain has something like that where  

[00:48:44] Unknown:

they have ads that then pay you to listen to them. They pay they stream the listener sets rather than  

[00:48:51] Unknown:

the podcaster sets. Yeah. It's an interesting model. I you know, it's one of those things that, like, I just like the fact that people are trying different stuff.   You know, go out there and try different stuff. And some things will stick, some won't, and maybe you tweak it and maybe find a nice market fit for something new. The other thing that, like, Bittstein kind of triggered in my head is is that so, like, my favorite podcast app is antennapod, completely false.  

[00:49:17] Unknown:

They've never had a business model. They just   donate their time to open source work.   If they're trying to integrate podcasting 2.0,   if they integrate podcasting 2.0, they actually get a cut of all the stream sets Right. On their app. So all of a sudden,   there's a business model   for podcast app creators that isn't, you know, harvest user data   and and surveil them.  

[00:49:41] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I think what what Overcast does,   is   they have ads for a free version, or you can pay them $10 a year to not have the ads. That's what I love about Spotify.   Yeah. And, I mean, you always have to just trust what people are saying on the back end because you you can't see what people are running on the back end. But,   I I assume given the guy I I forget his name, but the guy that makes it, he,   he's the guy that made,   was it Instapaper? Like, the original what Instapaper is? Right.   So he he he cares about, you know, kind of,   privacy stuff.  

And for that,   somewhere in the the terms, it said how,   there's only very specific data that goes to the advertisers, which is how many people saw this and how many people clicked on it. Stuff like that. Where none of it is, like, actually using your information.   And, it's just it's a very slick app. So, I mean, if if they implemented,   lightning 2.0 in it, I'd probably, you know, just give it a shot just to to have fun with it.   But I'm also just excited to see, like like you guys are saying, that people are trying this.   And I think   Adam Curry is right about just the power of RSS. I think RSS has been greatly underrated, and there's a reason Google killed it.  

And they got rid of, Google Reader and pushed all of, like, the the amp and all that stuff. It's a it's a very powerful medium. And I think it does create   just you you could have a whole market for indexers,   and RSS could be, you know, used for all sorts of different applications   which we already see. I I subscribe to a lot of YouTube channels, not through YouTube because,   I don't wanna be, like, logged into YouTube all the time. But I could there's a way to do it through RSS so I can get all the YouTube videos I want. Adam's indexer gets paid  

[00:51:33] Unknown:

a cut. He takes one percent of the podcasting 2 point o revenue that goes through his index. Do you know what somebody should make?  

[00:51:40] Unknown:

A indexing system   where people essentially mix match from other feeds, so they recurate   episodes of podcasts.   Mhmm. And then that resyndication,   there is some, like, revenue split there or something.   Because I would pay,   like, a buck to have a feed of, like, multiple podcast episodes on a specific topic.   Like, because there is, like, the wealth of knowledge out there in podcast is insane. Right? But I, you know, I don't necessarily wanna subscribe to a specific pod and and so I'd love to have, like, resyndication   per topic.  

And it could be sort of automated too, all kinds of stuff people can do,   especially with machine learning and just sort of trying to to get the topics and stuff and and just charge a buck and and and pay the podcasters   for that syndication,   the resyndication.   I think that would be really cool.  

[00:52:34] Unknown:

I also you know, there's there's a lot of podcasts now that, they use Substack   or Patreon or some of these other paywalls. And it's like, they'll do something like,   get get they'll do, like, half an episode free.   And then if you want the whole thing, you know, go go subscribe. It's It's like, I don't wanna pay the whole, you know, monthly thing for this one episode I wanna hear.   I haven't yet been sold on, you know, being being a pay pig for,   your your whole operation here.   So it would also be nice, you know, if more of these places just had a way to, like,   pay for 1 episode or,   have lightning 2 point o in a sense of, you know, hey, I wanna listen up to this amount   to see where it is. Maybe   maybe, I want 30 minutes more of this episode.  

It's all kinds of stuff that people could come up with and just the the fact that people are working on this,   they'll find they'll find what works. And I think it's   it's very bullish for just kind of the future of,  

[00:53:34] Unknown:

the Internet and And it's not a token.  

[00:53:36] Unknown:

Yes. You know, it's actually Bitcoin. Yeah. It's using money for what money is meant for.  

[00:53:42] Unknown:

Exactly.   Alright, guys.   So,   the list of software is done.   Now we're going to the 2nd part of the show. The noteworthy list,   is essentially, like, projects and updates and other things that   are interested   for people   who care about Bitcoin to know about but are not necessarily software updates.   So there is this BIP bounty, tax deductible bug bounties for Bitcoin.   I am a fan of anything tax deductible,   especially,   as a business because then he makes spending money on things that   that matter be a way for the state to get less,  

[00:54:23] Unknown:

taxes. Okay. Alright. I   sorry. The accounts gotta step in here. What I I I I never understand this of   Bitcoin companies   needing to have   Bitcoin expenses be tax deductible.   They're already tax deductible.   You they're they're part they're business expense. Business expenses are tax deductible. I don't understand   why   you need to have   okay. This is a 100%   tax deductible as a tech as a business expense,   but I also   would like this other category   where it would also be a 100% tax deductible.   It's the same outcome. You don't pay taxes. Like, I don't So the problem is,  

[00:55:06] Unknown:

in some jurisdictions   like ours,   you know, some,   like a lot of types of business expenses are not   expensable. Like What? Yeah. So so there are things that you can't like, for example,   you know, like a donation,   it's not a business expense   Unless   Why are you calling it a donation then? Just don't call it a donation. Call it a consulting fee. Well, see, this is the problem. Right? A lot of the times the people receiving the donations are not understanding that the way the world works. So they will make sure that the invoice says donation, Well, now you can't exactly.   So   so it's that's why it's important. It's important because people don't know how to do taxes.  

Right? They don't know how to journal things.   So   having   this premade mechanisms that are already packaged correctly  

[00:56:00] Unknown:

for the tax man, it's, I it's nice to have. So taking a a a client, a potential client to, like, a strip club  

[00:56:08] Unknown:

is business expense. No. No. No. Hold on. That that is that is that is meals and entertainment, and that's only 50%   deductible Oh, okay. As a business expense.   Same here.  

[00:56:20] Unknown:

Used to be a 100%, by the way. They changed that rule only about 20 years ago.  

[00:56:25] Unknown:

For obvious reasons. Right? No. I don't know. Well, I mean, like, what's the difference? Right? And you're like, just it's all so stupid. Somebody was abusing it. Somebody was was really eating some of the best steaks at the steak house   and deducting it a 100%.  

[00:56:39] Unknown:

I mean, if you had no taxes, then none of this would be a problem.  

[00:56:43] Unknown:

Correct. Yeah. Absolutely.   Or if you had people who could just, like, you know, set up an LLC and be like, hey, pay me this fee, and it's not a donation. So it's tax deductible.  

[00:56:57] Unknown:

Exactly. So, anyways, now you understand why, Pierre, it's important to have this. No. I still don't understand. But  

[00:57:06] Unknown:

Alright. Fedmint. But just real quick on the BitBounty,   this is germ it's good to see. This is Jeremy Rubin's project. It seems like he's primarily   he spun this up, for his Op CTV   bounties.  

[00:57:20] Unknown:

Nice. But he's open to having other projects on there as well. Do you know what's cool? They're trying to find a way now   to do OPC TV without changing Bitcoin.   That that that is bullish.   It's it's like we should not change   Bitcoin for anyone's interest,   unless it's in everybody's interest kind of thing. So   I don't know. I I just find it really cool that they're sort of like looking and they're finding ways of doing what they wanna do,   hopefully without any Bitcoin change, and then they don't need permission. Right? I mean, nobody needs permission in Bitcoin unless they want everybody to change.  

[00:57:55] Unknown:

Do do you mean no no change as in literally no change or as in Yes.  

[00:58:01] Unknown:

Literally no change.   They're trying to figure out how to do this stuff using, I think, Taproot,   multisig   Interesting. If I remember right. Yeah.  

[00:58:09] Unknown:

That's that's that's super cool. Well, I was told Taproot is useless.   What happened?  

[00:58:15] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Taproot is just essentially a carrot. I've I've seen on Twitter the   the the the pictures and is a carrot that lives inside Bitcoin   and it produces a lot of methane   and carbon dioxide   and it's gonna boil the oceans.   So that's why nobody should eat carrots anymore.  

[00:58:34] Unknown:

Got it. I I see a lot of Ethereum people   trying to, like, dunk on Taproot. Like, oh, we've had all this all this innovation and all you guys have come up with is Taproot.  

[00:58:45] Unknown:

Well,   they are gonna have a fun time,   not withdrawing.  

[00:58:52] Unknown:

Yeah. Taproot gives us Taproot gives us, like, nearly infinite ways of withdrawing.   You can just create the most complex, interesting ways to withdraw any way that you can imagine withdrawing funds we can come up with with the tap root, and they can't do it at all. If they have, ultrasound  

[00:59:10] Unknown:

money,   we have infinite withdraw money.  

[00:59:14] Unknown:

What a sad Irreversible withdrawals too. Ethereum Yes. I you know, they they they had a withdrawal   many years ago that got just completely reversed by the entire blockchain.   And the community rallied  

[00:59:27] Unknown:

around it. So I mean, on the plus side, now that the state has control over Ethereum, it's not no longer gonna attack Ethereum.   Alright. So Fedmint grant season. A new grantee, Josh Kitman,   is the 1st grantee of Fedmint,   is working with mustache enthusiast, Odell.   Oh, you're mentioned here,   Matt. Has called most bullish man I'm wearing both my mustache and my hat. Okay. He's working on an MVP   for Fedbit.  

[00:59:54] Unknown:

And that's the open source project, not the Right. For profit business. The foundation.  

[01:00:00] Unknown:

Okay. Tether holds   firm on this holds firm on decision not to freeze Tornado Cash Addresses   awaiting,   law enforcement   instructions.   That's that's interesting. I mean, listen. Anything that can be capturable will be capturable will be captured,   but it is nice to see companies, at least fighting back or pretending to fight back a little bit. It's always, I don't know. It's a feel good thing more than a useful thing.  

[01:00:29] Unknown:

Well, I mean, even if they if they wait a couple days before freezing it, I mean, that gives people a window of opportunity.   Yep. That that's true, actually. Maybe that's what they're doing, just buying people time. This blog post specifically, I think it was in response to there was, like, a Wall Street Journal or New York Times or Bloomberg hit piece on Tether not freezing tornado cash.   So they released this blog post and said, well, we got no notice to freeze, so we're not freezing anything until we got notice.  

[01:00:58] Unknown:

And they they are mostly Swiss based. Right? So, you know, there is a history there of,   gold thief and impartiality.   What else?   New York Digital Investment   Group announces lightning accelerator project called In Wolf's oh, yeah. So that's   a that's a Russ   Ross Ross Stevens, thing.  

[01:01:18] Unknown:

I saw the announcement that they had inside that the She did it in Austin in person, which is says a lot because he takes his privacy very seriously. I think that's the first public  

[01:01:28] Unknown:

in person thing he's done since being in Bitcoin. I don't know. I've seen him in a bunch of Bitcoin events.  

[01:01:35] Unknown:

In person? Yeah. Open to the public? Yeah. Like what?  

[01:01:39] Unknown:

No. I'm not gonna talk Steve Eds, but he was there.  

[01:01:42] Unknown:

But was he speaking?  

[01:01:45] Unknown:

No. I I don't think so, but Yeah. Definitely   roaming around.  

[01:01:50] Unknown:

You also skipped over Taj   Tajdreja   joining LightSpark.   I mean, this is big because, I mean, I have respect for him, and I just didn't expect much from LightSpark. So  

[01:02:02] Unknown:

What's LightSpark?  

[01:02:04] Unknown:

LightSpark is,   David Marcus,   the   prominent shit coiner that was running Facebook shit coin has left and made it he's making light lightning startup that I originally thought was  

[01:02:16] Unknown:

shit coins on lightning. He's very pro Bitcoin. But I've since learned is is infrastructure play on lightning. This is toxic slander to to call him a shitcoiner. I I would not characterize him as a shitcoiner.  

[01:02:28] Unknown:

He stole a probate coin. He was leading Facebook shitcoin project. Stablecoins don't count. They so they they  

[01:02:35] Unknown:

it was it was more of like a stable coin, which we can get into debates about whether gift cards or shit coins or chairs or shit coins, etcetera.   But he also he did have dot ETH. I think that's the strongest argument for why he's a shitcoiner. Yes.   But I think he also   is an early Bitcoin   booster. He was there, like, I think, 2013. He started filling his bag,   and,   I think that he learned a lot from his experience at Facebook.   My my four d chess,   thought here with, his company, LightSpark, is that,   so I think Mark Zuckerberg is also a closet Bitcoiner.   And they were like, okay. We we can't launch our own SharePoint.  

So what we're gonna do is you're gonna start this company. You're gonna create lightning infrastructure,   and then Facebook will acquire it. Yes. You'll get rich, and we'll get lightning,   and the regulators won't have time to do anything.  

[01:03:28] Unknown:

If you stick around for enough cycles,   you get to see Pierre become a shitcoin apologist.  

[01:03:33] Unknown:

Exactly. Yes.  

[01:03:35] Unknown:

It's very unlikely   that smart, powerful, well capitalized people don't understand   Bitcoin if they're sort of, like, working on technology. Right? Like, the Zuckerberg   of sorts.   They get   it very much. They listen. They would love to have their own capture version of things too because then they get to print the money,   but they also learn   very fast that they will get captured. I mean, Libra was immediately killed because that actually posed a threat to the US   fed. Right? I mean, they they could have had their currency   available to, what, 2,000,000,000 people now or whatever it is on on Facebook these days on day 1. Like, press a button and boom, they are the new money issuer. Right? So I I I think they get it. I think they're gonna try to milk   captured things as far as they can   to stack more sats.  

But, but yeah. And this guy, like, he's been sort of only talking about Bitcoin and and sort of, like, trying to be polite   about, like, I don't think other coins are   very safe or non capturable   kind of, like, rhetoric. Right?   Bitcoin is very good at this kind of thing.   He's very careful.  

[01:04:50] Unknown:

Well, you know, he's he's got,   cocktail parties to go to. You know, he wants to Yeah. Be friendly.  

[01:04:57] Unknown:

That's right. And v k to your point about guys like Zuckerberg,   you know, also consider   you have to wonder first of all, I I do think that he's a big corner to some level,   to some degree. But you also have to consider why they would be learning the importance of this and Bitcoin specifically,   and why there is that pushback about like, there's obviously the the the the drive to want to have your own capturable thing, but also not be capturable   by   other people.   And you you have to wonder what goes through,   Zuck's   mind   as, you know, the the state tries to further and further encroach on his   capacity to manage Facebook as he plea pleases.  



[01:05:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, he wants to be master of his own stuff. I mean, he created the company. Yeah. He wants to be emperor Augustus.   Yes. Totally. And it's fair. I mean, he did create his own universe. Right?   I mean, it's his rules.  

[01:05:54] Unknown:

And every day, there's there's always pushes to, you know, get him to censor this and censor that. And, you know, some of it he goes along with. Some of it there's been push back. But overall, the point is, like,   I'm sure he's the one who wants to be the one, deciding what to censor and what not to censor. And so,   you know,   for for someone in this situation, it might be, you know,   capturable   for thee, but not for me as as like a working thing. And to Pierre's,   shitcoin, Apologism. There is there there is an element. I mean, I think over time, everyone's going to be a Bitcoiner eventually.   And so   we will have to develop,   means of forgiveness,   so that we can get people properly integrated back into,   civilized society.  

Okay. So I I agree with you, but I I'm not saying that about David Marcus in particular. I'm just saying, broadly speaking, like, David does seem like a pretty good guy.   In the future, there's gonna be people that,   people have way more skepticism about than David Marcus. You know? You know, the the original way of people  

[01:07:03] Unknown:

to repent is by losing their sats,   either proof of burn or proof of sold.   You know, my my dear friend, Tina Cash   has, has done his his cycle of repentance.   And, you know, it's, we we we've all lost Sats along the way, some more than others.  

[01:07:23] Unknown:

Yeah. And I I ran a poll a while ago of,   were you a shit corner before becoming a Maxi?   And I think it was, like, 60%   said yes.   And so I think clearly,   empirically,   we already have a mechanism   for,   you know, repentance   and for you coming back into the fold.   All you gotta do is just be humble. That's all you gotta do. We're not asking you to write a long medium post about how you've seen the light. Like, just just become a bit harder. Like, we're we're not,  

[01:07:53] Unknown:

you know, we're not asking for for for a lot here. Did you guys all do your starter packs? I did mine yesterday,   Bitcoin toxic,   starter pack. I was very disappointed with the lack of,   radios and stuff, so I figured I I,   I go make one. I I heard that,  

[01:08:12] Unknown:

too many cold cards in the starter packs. Oh, no. We're toxic. Yeah. Yeah. It's like beef. You you should only have treasures in your starter pack. Even if you have a cold card, you should put a treasure in there so that other people feel welcome.  

[01:08:26] Unknown:

Boys, I I know the ship has sailed on owning,   the maximalist attack, but can we not own the fundamentalist attack? Can we just let this one die? No. No. No. I love that one. I just I'd I don't want us I don't want a bunch of plebs, like, running around saying I'm a Bitcoin fundamentalist. Like, I just do not want it to happen.  

[01:08:46] Unknown:

These these things, they they they come along all the time, though. I mean, it's   it's,  

[01:08:52] Unknown:

you know, we've heard all of them. There's been, like, there there's Bitcoin terrorists at one point. That's right. Yeah. I'm so glad we didn't own that one. Matt, you gotta stay humble. You know, Matt? Like, you don't get to we don't get to decide. I know. I don't get to decide, but Bittstein and Pierre do, so I I would like them to. Yeah. But that's true. They are the meme masters.  

[01:09:11] Unknown:

Our decision should be based on regulatory   concerns. Right? So terrorist   regulations around terrorism   are are very restrictive. It's already designated. You know, they they're very   anti terrorist.   Fundamentalist,   at least here in the US You're founded by it. Yeah. That's not that's that's, you know, tax deductible. Again, like, that's, you know, fantastic,   framing. So   not only is it great from a tax perspective, but it's also like we've been we've been hearing people tell us, stop looking at the price, focus on the fundamentals.   Fundamentals are what matter. Okay. We're fundamentalists. And then everyone gets upset. So I I don't know what to say. I am a fundamentalist  

[01:09:54] Unknown:

investor.  

[01:09:55] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I'm with you there. I'm I'm I'm I'm a devout Bitcoiner. I don't   it's a it's a it's a word that's gonna be coming up.  

[01:10:04] Unknown:

You know what's weird to me is that   by now you'd think that the people who call us names would understand that, like, we really, really don't care if anything we embrace   the new nomenclature.   We love the semantics of a in group, out group.   It it just strengthens,   Bitcoiners. Like,   maybe they should see that their attacks only makes us stronger. It's, I don't know. I think by now they would have learned but they clearly don't.  

[01:10:33] Unknown:

Well, they they they told us we're a religious cult. You know? Maybe it's just time to take it seriously.  

[01:10:38] Unknown:

You know, I I I shake my head back and forth every time I hear a block.   I hear blocks in my head.  

[01:10:46] Unknown:

Do I turn turn to your node every 10 minutes.  

[01:10:50] Unknown:

Oh, the new mini the new micron now beeps if you want.   So you can get a beep in the house for a while. Make it,  

[01:10:57] Unknown:

like, what's the   what's the call? The the the the Muslims,   like, they they do the great Yes. Song, the call to prayer. It should be Yes. Something of of that sort. And a 144   times a day,   you you  

[01:11:13] Unknown:

point towards your note and and give a nod and There you go. We should, we should buy all the bankrupt CD halls, put a bell on it, and then for every block, we bang a bell.   Boom. That's   it. Alright.   No bullshit Bitcoin,   on Twitter and on Telegram. I wanted to give a shout out because   this guy group of people   put out some really, really awesome high signal Bitcoin information.   They have a new website and and they put all the stuff there.   I just hope that they add the direct link to the   actual source   as a second tweet to their tweet or something.   But, anyways, it's just it's nice to have, like, high signal Bitcoin information without the ultra pumpage. The pumpage is nice too, but, you know,   different channel.  

So, yeah, I wanted to put that out there because sometimes I find new stuff for us, through them.  

[01:12:11] Unknown:

They have,   with the new website, they added a bunch of, like, separate RSS feeds so you can pick.   Nice. We were talking about RSS feed maximalism earlier, so I thought it was worth mentioning.  

[01:12:22] Unknown:

My, my friend Wiz here has launched a a lightning   Explorer for mempool.space.   It is in everything that they do absolutely gorgeous visually,   and,   you can really see how, Lightning is mostly on Amazon and on Google and and on Microsoft, which is fine. Different model. I think it's FUD.  

[01:12:46] Unknown:

I think it's it's unnecessary FUD. Also,   the,   it doesn't   and and, you know, I'm not speaking about any particular   node on the network or anything, but   there are people who use   proxies   where the proxies on AWS   and the node is on physical hardware.   And so,   like, I we should be educating people about, hey. You know, cloud, not great. But also, like, if you if it's a $100,000   on the cloud Who cares? And you've got, you know, a kajillion,   you know, dollars worth of Bitcoin on your cold keys cold card   that are cold keys,   then   who who cares?  

But the other part too is that, like, the whole premise of Lightning is that you can shut down 50%,   80%, 99% of the network.   Right? And,   nobody cares.   It shouldn't matter. Right? It it's trust minimized. So somebody can force close the channel to you, and it's okay.  

[01:13:52] Unknown:

There is there is nodes on Alibaba infrastructure.   Yeah. That that's pretty cool.   So and and Vodafone as well, which is private entity. It's not hosting solution for everybody. So, the only way this changes is if AWS or Google Cloud become unreliable  

[01:14:11] Unknown:

and then the network further decentralizes. But, like,   why why try to make things more robust when they're not?   This isn't like an area in my mind where I want lightning people to be focused on this. No. I want lightning people to be focused on increasing payment reliability.   Like, that's the bigger UX problem than,   are we on AWS or not? And it just seems completely misguided to me. But but, Pierre,  

[01:14:40] Unknown:

if Amazon offers hosted Raspberry Pis, I guarantee you they were gonna get a lot of people to be okay with it.  

[01:14:46] Unknown:

Well yeah. And the just this is what's frustrating me as the creator of the node launcher. It's like, get a laptop and open up the node launcher on it, and and and that's 10 times better than a Raspberry Pi.   But, anyway, I'll get off my soapbox.  

[01:15:01] Unknown:

On on on this mempool edition, I mean, I think you're bearing the lead, NVK. So this is the first Lightning Explorer that is actually being done by   an already existing Blockchain Explorer.   So the coolest part to me is that   you can click on a Lightning node, and then it also shows you the on chain transactions for the open and closes. And you can basically switch between on chain   and layer 2. So it it, like, dynamically goes between the 2,   which becomes extremely useful,  

[01:15:31] Unknown:

for people. Plus, it's very pretty. I just love how pretty Bitcoin stuff is.   You know, like like, you got even the nerdy look, which I love as well, but then you got this, like, ultra amazing, high information, well designed sites. Like, it's just nice because then media can show this instead of that gold coin for Bitcoin.  

[01:15:51] Unknown:

They're still gonna show the gold coin. Yeah. It's never going away. Right? Yeah. The the the worst one is the,  

[01:15:57] Unknown:

it's like a conference booth, and it, like, has the sort of rounded Bitcoin.   Every time I see that I don't know if you know exactly what picture I'm talking about. I know exactly It's a money money money 2020 or whatever. I think it was before it. No. It was it has to be at least, like, 2016 or 2017.  

[01:16:14] Unknown:

I think was a bit pay boof way back in,   either Amsterdam or the Atlanta one.  

[01:16:20] Unknown:

Yeah. Because that one, you always know it's gonna be a bad article when that picture shows up.  

[01:16:26] Unknown:

They have bad article, Bitcoin picture, good article, a good Bitcoin picture. Right? Like,   oh, man.   That's funny.  

[01:16:34] Unknown:

Alright. Before we move on, MBK, I have a I have a question for you that's not on the list.   Ledger announced that all Best Buy stores in America are selling Ledger hardware wallets. What are your thoughts on that? Oh, I was actually going to add that to the list, and I forgot.  

[01:16:50] Unknown:

So that is absolutely fantastic.   I mean, like, it is crazy to think   that, like, you know, only 10 years later because remember, right, back in the day you couldn't go buy a modem 10 years into the Internet anywhere.   You had to go specialize stores and stuff. So   I I think this is   this is a huge, huge deal. You're gonna have   like a cheap wallet that's, like, physically reasonably physically secure,   and people can properly get exposed to shit coins.   On, like,   any store that you can go and buy with cash.  

[01:17:27] Unknown:

It's it's it's a nice thing. If if given the opportunity, would you  

[01:17:31] Unknown:

put cold cards in every Best Buy? Yeah. Probably. I mean, why not? We press the we press the the print button for hardware at the factory, and we pump out enough, cold cards to to go to Best Buy. Well, you push back on the idea of, like,  

[01:17:45] Unknown:

distributors in the past, so that's why I asked. We would make a different version.  

[01:17:50] Unknown:

Like, we would just make a   you know, like, probably different firmware and different slightly different case looks so that you can differentiate,   what came directly from us. Mhmm. Plus we have more projects coming. So  

[01:18:02] Unknown:

I think not like,   another cool thing to to build on that is the fact that you have all these people who can now just buy this. And, you know,   Odell, you probably have more experience than, well, NVK. The 2 of you certainly have more experience than me actually onboarding people,   into these wallets and working with seed phrases and all of that is probably   one of the more difficult things to get across when it comes to, you know, security and just in general. So the fact that just random people can go to the store, pick up one of these things. And in order to turn it on, like, you have to start engaging with the seed phrase.   A lot of people are probably gonna get burned, unfortunately,   but that's part of how it works.  



[01:18:44] Unknown:

If I was, if I was a proper like, my my very basic attack   initialize them with a seed. I'll put them in shrink-wrap, which takes like a second, and I'll just go and replace them at the store with, like, one of those shoplifting bags, you know, the with the foil around. It it looked like it was behind one of the, like, locked glass things,  

[01:19:08] Unknown:

which I I don't know if that's just because, people steal things more now or if, it it it would be really cool if Best Buy somehow,   knew it's like, oh, this is something we need to   protect a little bit more. Although, given the crypto nature, that alone might tell them enough. It's like, hey, this is actually one of the things that needs to be more protected.  

[01:19:28] Unknown:

And then it'll be an inside job.  

[01:19:30] Unknown:

Well, Ledger might have told them no returns.  

[01:19:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   I I it's still great. I mean, like, you know, we can, you know, I can, I can go and sort of, like,   intellectually   bait about,   like, attacks on this? But, like, at the end of the day, it's just more people getting exposed to self custody, and and that's a huge win. And more exposure in general. Like, it just it's totally normalized. It's like crypto. I'm sorry to use that phrase, but, like, it it is Ledger.  

[01:19:59] Unknown:

You know, crypto is not this,   like,   crazy fringe thing. It's like you literally just go to Best Buy and pick up a wallet.  

[01:20:08] Unknown:

It it completely normalizes it. I think we just lost Bitsting.   I think he's gone.  

[01:20:15] Unknown:

Yeah. I'm out of here. I gotta go, guys. Once Michael starts talking about he's gonna be cryptosteen   pretty soon. Okay.  

[01:20:23] Unknown:

Yeah. Pierre Pierre starts shit coin apologizing,   and it's okay. And then, you know, I I use the word crypto once  

[01:20:30] Unknown:

in relation to a ledger. This podcast is falling apart.  

[01:20:33] Unknown:

Okay. You literally just screamed, fire in a movie theater right now. I have fun staying quiet. You know, Rothbard argued that that, isn't understood the way that, people think. But By the way, Pierre, you mentioned that you might need to go actually for real. So do you need to go? No. I do need to go for real. I'm joking.  

[01:20:49] Unknown:

See, I just I wanted I wanted to make Pierre not feel bad that he had to go. Yeah. Exactly. Any parting thoughts, Pierre?  

[01:20:57] Unknown:

Bitcoin, not crypto.  

[01:21:00] Unknown:

Thanks for coming, man. I really appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Bye. Appreciate you. Peace. Take care.  

[01:21:06] Unknown:

The other thing with Ledger is, you know, not too long ago,   270,000   customers had their mailing address is exposed. So the fact that you can go and buy a Best Buy with cash,   is a very easy protection from that.  

[01:21:20] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:21:21] Unknown:

You know, it's a win. By the way, I think that the real thing there was just that,   I I associate ledger with crypto, not with Bitcoin.   So  

[01:21:30] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Exactly. It's Yeah. Ledger's what I recommend to all, like, my   shit coining friends from college and stuff because I'd rather them self custody their shit coins than   Coinbase.  

[01:21:41] Unknown:

Yeah. This this normalization is just very important.   For for many, many years, I've just enjoyed if I'm just out, just   injecting Bitcoin suddenly everywhere I can.   You know, whether it's a joke about it,   or whatever.   Just because it's like people need to hear these things and know that it's it's out there. It's not just it's not just a weird thing online. Yes. It's a real phenomenon that's happening globally,   and you should feel a part of it. And you should you should feel weird if you don't know enough about it. Yeah. No. It should we should we should normalize  

[01:22:16] Unknown:

people. It's kinda like when, when people started to pretend they knew what email was.   You   know, like, I I still remember, like, friends, like, that were not really into computer stuff back in the early days,   of the Internet. And,   you know, you want people to feel embarrassed if they don't know what it is, kinda how people feel embarrassed now if they don't have stocks.   It you wanna normalize that because, you know, even shitcoins are still better than a lot of the the the traditional financial,   products.  

[01:22:48] Unknown:

I mean, that's why people use them, frankly. Yeah. So now we're, like, 3 of 4 shit coin apologists on this show. This is an apologist.   This is this is I I'm saying that shit coins are late stage fiat, and so people gravitate towards it. I mean, to envy case statement, I think people are better off owning Apple stock than  

[01:23:06] Unknown:

shitcoins.  

[01:23:07] Unknown:

I I'm saying that the reason they gravitate towards it is because they they are chasing yield   to beat   just the the like, you you can't have low time preference fiat behavior.  

[01:23:19] Unknown:

Yeah. But see, Matt, if this is an American centric view, like, in Brazil, more people have, like, crypto than they than they have stocks because Because they can't get it. No. But that's what I'm saying. But that's true for everybody outside North America. Like, even in Europe, it's harder to buy stock.   It's a it got better in the last few years, but, you know, like,  

[01:23:39] Unknown:

this this one button buy Okay. Well, those people should stay on Bluestacks sets. Yes.  

[01:23:46] Unknown:

No one's disagreeing.  

[01:23:49] Unknown:

Alright. Moving on   to   actually,   do do you guys have,   we're actually renaming the show the crypto dot review.  

[01:24:00] Unknown:

Perfect.   Then it's gonna be, like, 10 hours.  

[01:24:03] Unknown:

By the way, I bought another domain. I was going to call this the Based Layer   show,   but,   that that doesn't I prefer the Bitcoin review. Anyways,   so moving on to the Bitcoin OpTech newsletter.   They have a bunch of stuff. We're not gonna go through everything because otherwise it'll take days,   but   they have, there is a   I don't know if it's a pull request or an issue to,   extend,   PSBT   bump fee RPC with the ability to create PSBTs that fee bumps and transaction,   and and a transaction even   if some are all the inputs to the transactions don't belong to the wallet, which is kinda cool.   That will help.  

So, essentially, there's been this sort of, like, push   to   allow   the client the Bitcoin client software   to to have   a a a more formalized way of adding nonstandard things.   So so, yeah,   That's kinda nice.   Eclair,   adds support for fee bumping, duo funded lightning setup transactions,   and add support for signet. Nice to see more signet support.   You guys you guys, jump in if you guys have comments about any of this stuff. Okay? I'll just keep, I'll just keep going here. LDK updates support for any messages   with the ability to send, reply paths   and decode them when received.  

H w I adds support for p 2, for a p to page to top root key path spans using bit box 2 inside the devices.   Okay. Well, that's great.   Matt is laughing, and I am,   lost here.  

[01:25:56] Unknown:

I was just laughing because you said Bitbox out loud.  

[01:25:59] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Well, that's   true. No. In this context, I think it's, it's worthy to mention,   especially because this is probably Chow's work.   So the the idea for people that don't know is that HWI   is a library maintained by Core   that supports all hardware wallets that they can support   so that,   there is less,   issues maintaining all the clusterfuck that it is, all the hardware wallets dependencies for plugging them in on a USB,   or, we actually have a PR open for NFC.  

[01:26:34] Unknown:

I like I like the,   hardware wallets where you don't have to use the hardware wallet interface. Yep. That's kind of the whole point. Although, I mean, I I think HWI is a a a great project,   but I'm too,   I don't like plugging things in.  

[01:26:50] Unknown:

Yeah. I don't know. That is the correct way of of looking at it. Right? I mean, unlike,   the FUD against Airgap, which is the weirdest thing I have ever heard in my life,   You know, some some projects claim that plugging it in is safer than than not plugging it in. Like, I can't even begin to comprehend how that might take place. My grog brain,  

[01:27:09] Unknown:

like, I I am not   a, like, computer security expert,   because that rabbit hole gets very deep very fast.   For me, my grog brain argument for it is literally just insanity checks. I want to be like, it's it's not about the it's it's not even necessarily about the actual security of the computers themselves. Maybe plugging in a USB   in some way that I don't understand is somehow just as safe as, an SD card because of all the microcontroller   stuff.   But at the same time, when I can,   move things between   specialized hardware,   I've I   operationally   feel much more comfortable.  

And I can think through each individual step   with with that kind of sanity, which if I'm dealing with, you know, life savings or something like that, it's like I need that sanity.  

[01:28:01] Unknown:

Well, the idea is kinda simple. Right? It forces you into   proper hygiene. Right? Security hygiene. Exactly. So just just mentally speaking, like, you're in this better space where you're keeping things separate. Right?   I mean, the micro SD attacks are are are so absurd in how they're funded. Like, first of all, there's never been a a demonstration   of those,   and for USB attacks, there's been many demonstration of those for many Bitcoin, wallets.   And and the micro SD attack can be foiled by simply like, let's say you have, like, $1,000,000,000,000   in your hardware wallet. Right?  

And and you so like you you truly in the heightened paranoid   mode like a whole different level. Right? Well, just go to Best Buy,   buy 50   micro SD cards for like $2 each of the smallest size. Bring it over and just snap them every time you use them and that's it. Like,   you're no longer at risk of somebody   doing this this unproven attack of trying to get into the micro SD, like, microcontroller.   And assuming that you can even get the hardware wallet to respond to that attack too. If you're getting that paranoid, couldn't you also I asking as a question. I don't know that this is actually legit, but couldn't you also have a  

[01:29:20] Unknown:

basic computer setup   that you pull it in to inspect the data that just came from an SD card and then copy it over to a different SD card as you move it to the cold card. So you're not you're not even like,   you know,   one of the SD cards   being problematic doesn't,   ruin the whole the whole process.  

[01:29:44] Unknown:

Yeah. No. Exactly. Right? Just 1, snap the cards, don't reuse them. 2, you can just use a sanitized computer, right,   to build the transactions.   And and you're you're like you're like a whole another level of security here that, like, it's it's like I don't know of an any person aside from,   Iranian reaching facility in in Iran,   that was running windows,   that like has been pound through the air gap barrier. Right? Like   there is a reason why, like,   all this, like, big secrets or very important systems run fully air gapped. Right? Because, you know,   there is no chance of remote attacking it. Like, there's no synchrony on that. Right? You'd have to build a very specific it just gets crazy.  



[01:30:33] Unknown:

So, I mean, there's a lot of focus in this topic on on actually signing transactions.   But to me, the biggest peace of mind of the micro SD   air gap is is firmware updates because it's just such a So easy. Logically clean process. It's like I download the firmware update on a sanitized computer, and then I just I check the signature, and then I just drag and drop it onto the SD card. Like, that process is just so much   is it just it feels logically clean to me as opposed to plugging in the USB and then pressing the update. I have no idea what the fuck is happening there. No. And you wouldn't know. Right? Because first of all, if you have a hardware wallet that doesn't have a secure element, it cannot attest to itself.  

[01:31:18] Unknown:

Right? So technically, you could have an update that then breaks   the signature checking. So the device will lie to you that's getting real firmware. Right? And then steals your money that way. So there is a myriad of attacks that way. Like, I don't know. Is there a way to  

[01:31:33] Unknown:

even update the firmware on say, like, a Ledger without using Ledger Live?  

[01:31:38] Unknown:

Probably not because of the way no. No. Actually, there is. There is. You can download then you have to run some special tools  

[01:31:46] Unknown:

and then you can push it in via USB. Right? Yeah. So maybe they could maybe they could simplify that. But at this very moment, the easiest way, like, to I can because with cold card, you can as as Odell would say, you'd literally just download it, check the signatures,   move it on to the cold card, with an SD card  

[01:32:06] Unknown:

and, gives you that green light and everything. And you don't have to be close to the Internet or close to a computer. Right? That's the key. So Yeah. Let's say you have that cold card buried somewhere or, like, some people may keep it in a safe deposit box or whatever. You can just walk in there with the micro SD and a little power bank. Right? Get it done   and leave. So you never have,   you physically exposed with the hardware wallet in your person,   right, to run an update or to run a transaction.   So it's even more than just   the actual,   like, electronic attack. Like, you're not exposing yourself to physical attacks either because you can sign it inside the say, like, a a branch   safe deposit box location.  



[01:32:46] Unknown:

And that gets really cool with multisig.   Yes. Because you can sign the individual parts and then just ferry an SD card around. Mhmm. That is like fucking tiny SD card. No. I mean, like that micro SD card can it's much more bum compatible than gold.   Than the OpenDime even, and people are obsessed with that. I know.  

[01:33:07] Unknown:

I think people wanna feel like they have something in there. Maybe the MicroSD card just removes that sensation. It's too small. I don't know.   People are weird.  

[01:33:16] Unknown:

Don't judge.  

[01:33:18] Unknown:

Alright.   ALDK we already talked about. H w I b d k.   Begins verifying both e c d s a and Schnorr signatures immediately after the wallet creates them.   Okay.   This recommendation of BIP 340   was discussed in the newsletter 83. So if you wanna hear the discussion about that, just go to   Bitcoin OpTech. They have some good writing on that.   Okay. So this one is a fun one.   It was, it's actually in the wrong spot here. Supposed to be news and old Twervy.   So I tweeted about this.   So, essentially,   the secure element,   a ATAC,   608   a   is been described by the manufacturer relabeled as,   not to be used in new designs.  

And there is hardware wallets out there using in new designs,   and   that's a very bad thing.   It is negligent,   and   I I figured I'd I'd bring this up at least because I wanted to comment on that   and   for people that don't know how hardware devices sort of how their hardware, like, parts work   is   a new a new device,   sorry, like, say you're a hardware manufacturer. Right? You source your parts   and and for for parts that are real, mission critical for companies, especially industrial   that move a lot slower, they'll give you often a timeline of, like, expected life   of that part.  

And and and these things are very well sort of like fought through and they have proper road maps because they have compliance and all kinds of shit. Right? And you can't just go and replace a part sometimes in a embedded computer that's been fully potted inside a oven of a smelting   steel facility. Right? So what happens is the the the manufacturer say, hey, listen. You know, we found a flaw in this.   We're still gonna sell it to you in case you need replacements because you can't change the design, but don't   put it in new designs because it is no longer safe. Right?  

And that gives that industrial facility   time to design something new and sort of go through but not stop production.   Right? Now   when you're dealing with, like, you know, like this tiny market that that Bitcoin hardwall is,   especially for Bitcoin only. Like, it it is totally negligent to still use this part. And, there is a tax out there,   you know,   in our design, you still need to break the MCU to get to that. It's only older devices that have that that chip. We we immediately changed the new b version   after it came out. Actually, even before it came out, the manufacturer informed us that that there was, an issue with that part.  

And we got parts to sample test parts of the new part   and started building in and immediately,   you know, as,   started releasing with the with the new part.   And I I think that it's,   it's not humble,   to know because you don't know if you have bugs. Even if you have extra protections, you just don't know. So anyways, you should move to to the new part. So the ATAC,   608 a should not be used anymore, and if you're still using it just because you wanna ship devices, you're negligent.  

[01:36:46] Unknown:

So the MK 4 has 2 secure elements in it.   Is one of them the 608 a or b. That's the 608 b what? 608 b, which will you will get pound eventually too. And then what's the other one?  

[01:37:01] Unknown:

The other one,   skipped my mind now, but it's from ST. It's a different manufacturer.   So we change so, essentially, now we have multi vendor,  

[01:37:10] Unknown:

multi secure element. So you have to compromise both  

[01:37:14] Unknown:

to extract the secret. Yeah. Oh, no. You have to compromise 3 chips.  

[01:37:18] Unknown:

The MCU and those 2. Exactly.  

[01:37:21] Unknown:

And and you have to do that without destroying the sample.   Right? Like Right.   You know, is it possible somebody ever gonna do it? Ledger will do it.   No. So, by the way, Ledger was never capable   of   demonstrating to us that they can get   the seed off of mark 3, even the original mark 3 that had the a version. So when they did the laser, that was MK 2?   Yes.   The original laser. There was a second laser done,   which they can get into the the 608 a, but they never demonstrated they could get actually the seed out of cold card. It was just theoretically we could.   But the problem right now is that you have wallets out there in the market that are untested   by this level of scrutiny,   so you just don't know. Right? I mean, everybody's gonna find bugs. I mean, lazy ninja found bugs for us,   you know, and and you go and you fix it and you have to keep on evolving. In some changes, you have to change the hardware, some changes you have to change the for the firmware, and some changes have to sorry, the the below there, and sometimes you have to change the firmware.  



[01:38:23] Unknown:

I know we're, like, we're going we're we're deep in hardware while it's secure elements, but I just wanted to say the MK   4, the case,   it's nice. It's, like, it's it's it's, it's hard to explain. It's it's smaller. It just feels really nice in the hand. It's like I don't wanna use the MK threes anymore because the MK four just feels so good in the hand. So we've upgraded our industrial designer,  

[01:38:46] Unknown:

person.   He's, he's he's very good,   and, he's he's done a lot of work for that field to exist because it's the same plastic type. We use a we use a very expensive plastic. It's polycarbonate.   But we want a certain level of   of resiliency on the case, and we want that clearness.   Yeah. It's it's it's, like, it's a lot more polished,   in that sense. And there is the sliding case too, which I always wanted.  

[01:39:16] Unknown:

The sliding case is just there to fidget with while you're recording podcasts. Right? Like this Pretty much. I am fidgeting with this  

[01:39:22] Unknown:

tungsten ball.   Anyways,   so yeah. What else? The Ethereum merge, I don't know. This was more interesting, like, a couple weeks ago. I think it's been enough. People have talked about enough, and I think have fun not withdrawing is the correct sort   of answer to it. Unless something else new came up and you guys wanted to mention anything, it's kind of a big deal. And it's not a merge. It's a fork.   It kind of it triggers me that they call it a merge.  

[01:39:50] Unknown:

I mean, it's classic. Right? Like, we saw this during s two x. It's like upgrade. Right? Not fork. They call it upgrade.  

[01:39:57] Unknown:

It's marketing language, not technical language. Yeah. It it's kind of like, when they do the rollback was a   a transitory   chain state.  

[01:40:07] Unknown:

It's a quantitative   easing, guys.  

[01:40:10] Unknown:

Right. I think the merge is important for Bitcoiners  

[01:40:13] Unknown:

in just that,   you know, we've been arguing   about the merits of proof of stake versus proof of work for so long, and it's always been like theoretical straw man.   Yep. So   now having a major chain,   Ethereum,   move to proof of stake,   we should and and do it in probably the strongest adversarial environment they've ever been in because tornado cash sanctions happened, like, 3 weeks before.   I think there's gonna be some real world   lessons learned here   that basically move move   show the value of proof of work, like, once and for all is my optimistic take. You know, the the problem is this, though.  

[01:40:53] Unknown:

1, the people who have Ethereum, they'll give a fuck. Like, they really don't care about,   verifiable money, about salable money. None of that stuff. Right? They they really don't care.   If there was a gift that Udi gave the world, it was, like, really just, like,   explaining to us Bitcoiners   that all the arguments that we have about Ethereum is that the people who have Ethereum don't care. It's the same way that, like,   you know,   client   states of America   want the dollar because they want the physical protection and they don't mind that they are at their mercy. Right? It's just part of the model.   And and I think the biggest issue though is   we're not gonna see   the attacks being performed on Ethereum many of much of the time. Right? Because it's all gonna be under NSLs and all kinds of stuff like that.  

And 2 is the ones that are gonna be public are gonna happen much later on. Right? So they're gonna get a good run out of the second, 3rd, 4th version of the scam   for a while, and and they're very good at that. You gotta give it to them.   It's like the MMT people. They're very good at   sort of pushing   the end of the dancing chairs,   game to later.  

[01:42:06] Unknown:

I think you make a point, with yeah. They're just they don't have the same goals at us. They're they're working towards very different goals.   And that's sometimes been hard to,   you know, show.   There's always been this Mott and Bailey   in Ethereum where   it's   an investment that competes with Bitcoin when it's doing well against Bitcoin.   But when it's not, it's like, oh, well, actually, we're not competing with Bitcoin at all. It's this you know, it's actually it's the it's the oil   of of the Internet.   Bitcoin might be the gold, but we're the oil. And it they come up with some other narrative.   And   the the the reason that's a sort of motte and bailey is, like, at the end of the day,   Ethereum does compete with Bitcoin as a monetary asset.  

That being said, when they say, oh, we're not competing with Bitcoin, they're not wrong in the sense that it's like   they they're they're trying to   corner a market in a totally different way. They have a totally different vision.   And   it can be difficult   to differentiate that that vision to some people who are   not as in the loop as we are. And so the more that they can   actually,   stake their grounds in in in, like, a totally different vision of where things ought to go,   the easier it is for Bitcoin   to stand apart from everything else. And in fact, now,   Bitcoin's comparison to all other, proof of work coins is,   staggering.  

And, we'll we'll see how long it takes for certain things to play out with proof of stake. But at least it gives us that that stark difference of   Bitcoin.   Why do we stick with proof of work? It's because we need it for these reasons. And, like, so we can have actual,   you know, decentralization   and and and all the things that we we love about Bitcoin. But that creating that difference, I think, is is is great. So thanks, Ethereum, for helping   helping   show us,   why we need this and,   kinda like ranting on this. But   this has been a process that's happened throughout the history of Bitcoin is everyone's always,   you know, wanted to differentiate themselves   through some future. You know, you know, you have Litecoin   where it was, you know, a different scripting algorithm that wasn't susceptible to GPUs and then not susceptible to a 6. But, oh, it's also faster.  

And then feather coin is like, oh, well, we're even faster.   And, you know, you got 6 minute apps. I got 5 minute apps. And it just goes on and on. Right.   And a lot of   Bitcoin's value   has been demonstrated over the year   through   a sort of negative illustration.  

[01:44:52] Unknown:

It's by the fact that someone has chose it's like, you don't necessarily know why Bitcoin is the way it is. But then when others make a differing choice, it reveals something about this is why Bitcoin is the way it is. I mean, we lost a competitor, which is amazing. That's awesome. Right? We're not competing with them for, like like, hardware dollars for for development. Right? Because, you know, NVIDIA, all these companies. Right? They're not gonna put money in any of the stuff anymore. Right? So they might come and and put all their r and d into the one through chain.  

[01:45:24] Unknown:

Yeah. And they have actual, you know, ways to make money through through the mining. But yeah. It's like it's like a, you know, there there's the old Chesterton's fence. People like to talk about that, and I think there's a lot of value in the idea of Chesterton's Fence.   And whenever people make these different things, it's kinda helping us reveal. It's like, this is why this fence was built.   And the more we can understand it, the better and the better we can explain it to newcomers.   And, yeah, Bitcoin continues doing what it's doing. My note didn't even notice the merge. So in the grand scheme of things, it means nothing to me.  

[01:46:01] Unknown:

I mean, I a 100% agree with that with that thesis. I mean, that that's kind of where I see   that that's why I see the merge as important. And, I mean, I love the feather coin mentioned, but to the to the newcomers, like, the big one recently that's been happening is is Solana to me,   because, like, their their network just, like, pauses, and they're like, okay. We have to unplug our 7 nodes and plug them back in. Pretty much.   Is there, like, is there a better example   of why the trade offs are made on Bitcoin the way they are than that recently? Probably not. And and we've seen this with, different custodial stuff and,  

[01:46:37] Unknown:

so many different so many different things is we we have to learn through negative example,   many times. But Solana is just funny because, like, somehow   somehow it became,   like,   the the some   phenomenal exception.   Like, a lot of people that I I've talked to, you know, is like, oh, well, like, Bitcoin's great and Solana. It's like, how did Solana even manage to to get in there is, beyond me. They have shoes. Right? Is it Solana that he can buy sell on his shoes at some store?  

[01:47:08] Unknown:

I don't know. They're backed by a lot of rich people. So, like, FTX is neck deep in it. They do a lot of sponsorships and stuff. Right?  

[01:47:16] Unknown:

I I you know, on the Ethereum thing, like, you know, I am a fan of stable coins. I've always been.   And,   you know,   if I was a stablecoin operator, right, that one of meaningful size that that is concerned about capture and and it gets very tricky very fast,   You know, being in a chain where,   nodes in the network can censor me,   is a problem.   Right? Because   stable coins are, like, state actors enemy number 1. Right? Bitcoin really is enemy number 10.   Like, we we don't even like because they know. Right? That the efforts to break Bitcoin   I mean, it's much easier to just sort of likes like, the the way they're screwing a Bitcoin is just   essentially,   approving every,   financial instrument that can suppress Bitcoin's price. Right? So so you cannot get in to that they're killing all the on ramps,   like say a spot ETF for for for the TradFi sort of environment. Right? But they keep on adding all this sort of like shorting  

[01:48:18] Unknown:

mechanisms to Bitcoin and the longing too so that they can create all this, like, a lot of shit essentially. They also probably have personal interest in wanting to stack stats to some degree. Yeah. Exactly. And increasingly over time. So it's like, you don't you it it like, we were saying earlier about Zuck, you know, it's like, you know, capturable for the, but not for me. That's right. Even the the government agent who wants to sort of destroy other people's access to uncensorable money   has their reasons to want uncensorable money.  

[01:48:48] Unknown:

You know, I'm finding this a huge win for Bitcoin technically. The fact that, like, state actors can't really do much against Bitcoin practically, so they have to use CME   on the price.   You know, like, that that's that's like already gold to stack more.   That's already gold level security   at, like, you know, a tenth of the of the of the market capitalization of the total market. Right? So   it it is already impressive on itself.   So,   you know,   eventually,   this this paper Bitcoin stuff is is gonna is gonna take a is gonna pound sand. Right?   Because every other country by the US has a spot ETF.  

So every country of of size,   economically speaking. So,   you know, it's it's gonna get weird and interesting. They're not gonna be able to to push this off for too much longer. Right? Eventually, it's gonna have to happen   And the news of that on itself will break all those shorts too, which is gonna be a monumental clusterfuck, but whatever.   It it is it is fascinating to watch, especially being in this space for a while. It's,   to to imagine the magical Internet money is no longer an experiment as Pierre said on that pod. I think it was, expertly called.   I can say for myself that Bitcoin is no longer an experiment.  

It's  

[01:50:11] Unknown:

it's, it's pretty cool to see. I have a random thought process that links back to the previous conversation as well.   How long do we think it'll take for an Ethereum spot ETF to be the largest validator on the network?  

[01:50:26] Unknown:

Oh, it's gonna be a second. Right? Because they're gonna have a lot of   ETH. Imagine a GBTC  

[01:50:32] Unknown:

was e t c or whatever ETH or whatever they have. Yeah. But imagine if GBTC at the peak, okay,  

[01:50:39] Unknown:

was a Bitcoin validator. That would be a huge fucking problem.  

[01:50:43] Unknown:

I'm excited for that.  

[01:50:45] Unknown:

Yeah. It's gonna be, and and people think   that,   you know, like, you're gonna do this slashing and all that crap. Like, they don't understand. They're like,   oh, like, the the bank secrecy act and and like breaking those how do you call those,   the the financial sanctions?   It's a big fucking deal for the people who are known. It's like 30 years jail kind of deal. Like they're not gonna break this law. These laws are designed so that the executives themselves make sure that it doesn't happen. Right? Terrible point of capture.   Well, have fun staying poor.  

Alright. Next one, Spyro, private information retrieval block explorer.   I I remember seeing a little bit of that. They were coming up with a new way for people to   check their balances,   without doxing themselves. That was kind of interesting.   Do you guys know much about it?  

[01:51:39] Unknown:

I saw it on Stacker News last week. It seems promising.   I don't really understand how it works. It's supposed it uses homomorphic encryption to guarantee your privacy. So we don't have homomorphic  

[01:51:51] Unknown:

encryption yet. Does not exist.   So they must have, like, some way in which there is a trade off, and that's kinda how it happens.  

[01:52:00] Unknown:

It seems like that like, what they claim seems fucking awesome. Yes. Basically, you can look up an address,   get the balance, get the transaction history without them being able to tie that address lookup to the IP address you used to look it up, which has been a major pain point with block explorers.   And that the main trade off is that it's slightly more compute heavy, but they think they can charge for the service.  

[01:52:26] Unknown:

Okay.  

[01:52:27] Unknown:

But I don't really understand how it works.  

[01:52:29] Unknown:

Okay.   Sounds like a paper to read, not a a quick pod comment. And I wish they chose a different name.  

[01:52:37] Unknown:

Yeah. That was that was confusing.  

[01:52:40] Unknown:

Completely unrelated to  

[01:52:42] Unknown:

Square's spiral. Yeah. Of course, for even, like, you know, slightly technical people, it's it's not that difficult to set up a private mempool.space,   or other local block explorer that gives you this without needing all of the, fancy,   homomorphic encryption   claims.  

[01:53:02] Unknown:

But I do wonder, like, if   if, like, there might be something here for   non full node users   with a wallet integration. Like, there was this cool   BTC pay alternative called Cypherpunk pay that essentially instead of you running a node, what they did was they would do random tour calls to different   block explorers to look up your balance.   So the first thing that came to my head with this was   maybe you could use something like this to to run a note as a service for people that the note is blind to what you're requesting.  

[01:53:38] Unknown:

Right.   Yep. Yeah. Yeah.   I I just   I I also this it it does show the benefit of when you're ready taking the time to actually learn how to set up these resources   because you can save yourself a lot of the headache of of thinking about the the possibilities  

[01:53:57] Unknown:

by just kind of running your own thing. I for me, it's just cool to see publicly traded companies   having a subsidiary   that's, like, pouring cash into things that are kinda, like, useless to to them in a way?  

[01:54:10] Unknown:

No. This is completely unrelated   to Square's spiral.  

[01:54:15] Unknown:

Really? That's the confusing thing. Yeah. Yes.  

[01:54:19] Unknown:

Okay. Alright. So so you know what? Oh, so Spyro is like the name of the thing? Yeah. It's completely different. Oh my god.   Dear project   creators,   and and this happened the other day,   with, like, this this cool kid   who, who created a a a block watch, which was, like, a project that we have and we have a trademark for, and he very graciously changed to block screen. Nicely to iOS app.   And,   guys, just check the name   to see if there is other names of projects that are, like, already in existence in your space before you name something.   As space grows, it becomes   difficult.  



[01:55:02] Unknown:

Anyways alright. Oh, last last thing I'll I'll say on that is, if you you link to btc.usepiral   dotcom.   But if you go directly to use spiral.com,   they do have,   a link to their research paper,   that was published in,   a journal,   kinda going over what what this,   you know, whole thing is.   So I haven't read that, but, it could have some interesting   cryptography in there that  

[01:55:33] Unknown:

and even if it's even if I don't use this here, I don't know if the technology is useful for all kinds of other things that I would use. So By the way, for the people who are still sticking around there, through this whole thing, we made a mistake here on the show notes. Anything from the ATEC 608 a,   and   on was not UpTech newsletter, is part of the news and noteworthy, so that's why you're getting a second dose   of, of other stuff.   So, anyways, just wanted to mention that. Alright. US Treasury OFAC releases clarification   on the tornadoes on the tornado cash, sanctions.  

People probably already talked this to deaf.   It is it is an honorable,   mention in case the only pod you listen to is this pod.   So,   you know, they're essentially saying that code is free speech, which is kinda nice to see because it probably don't wanna get screwed,   with, with losing in court.   And, and they're saying they're not gonna go after   big small transactions,   and they're saying that, you know, if you comply and you just roll over quickly,   you know, they will help resolve your things, but you're gonna have to dox your entire life  

[01:56:46] Unknown:

and very, very, unsavory stuff. Yeah. They said you can apply for a license to withdraw from Tornado Cash. Yeah. You have to give them full transaction history and KYC info to do it. Yep. It's it's, it's an interesting sort of, like, mafia so tactic.   Yep. Now you want some protection?  

[01:57:03] Unknown:

That's right.   Alright.   BIP proposal   for wallet labels format by Craig Wright. We've had him talk about Craig Roth, bro. Oh, wow. Craig Roth. Craig Raw. Craig Raw. I keep on calling him always wrong. I know he was on the pod, and you called him fucking Craig. Right?  

[01:57:22] Unknown:

So you brought this up last week, and I was, like, kind of dozing because we were late in the episode, and I was, like, I'm not aware of this.   I'm ex like, I we need this. We need Yeah. No. It's great. We need wallet label exports. Like, that is it is fucking massive pain point Yes. Because the best practice is to label all your transactions, but none of our backups   keep the fucking labels.  

[01:57:43] Unknown:

So here's the problem, though. The way that he's proposing this is gonna be an absolute pulling teeth,   horrible experience trying to get this approved because everybody has opinions about file formats.  

[01:57:57] Unknown:

Like just do what you did with PSVT.   So just release a wallet label export feature in Sparrow and be like, if you want to be compatible with Sparrow, be compatible with Sparrow. Boom. Boom. Yeah. So what my suggestion to him though was to to especially  

[01:58:12] Unknown:

divide and conquer   the bike sharing conversation by having one format that's for wallet interchange   and one format for humans.   So you essentially have CSV for humans to to open and you have JSON for wallets to interact.  

[01:58:28] Unknown:

And then, now you have the people arguing about 2 more things, so then you can go squeeze in the mail and get it done. And then you just get, like, you get, like, Spectre to do it. Maybe you get, like, to do it. You, like, get a couple big names to, like, just agree with your standard, and then the rest will follow or be left behind. Exactly. But it will be nice to have a bip though. So,  

[01:58:50] Unknown:

yeah, keep on the fight.   By the way, we have the same problem right now with BIP 85.   Apparently, a   rule is that we cannot change a BIP if the BIP original submitter does not,   act   and we edit passwords to BIP 85.   So, essentially, I think we're just gonna submit a new BIP   with a new number   for that. It's gonna get very weird because, you know, people are gonna die. Right? We're all gonna get old and die and then nobody's gonna be able to act unless you're Craig Wright. Then you can definitely   bring a laptop and show me how you sign   your original key   in front of me like Gavin. Just watch out pineapples.  

That's right.   Oh, that trial is what a fascinating   window into the insanity,   scamminess  

[01:59:39] Unknown:

of the human. I love that it's all being filmed.  

[01:59:42] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. It's so good. I'm not very bullish,   because,   you know, people who are, like, a little bit layman to the law,   they watch trials and things. They're like, oh, look. Gotcha kind of thing, But that's definitely not how the law works,   and and and like how the judge will consider each type of evidence and stuff.   So,   you know, for me, it's still totally up in the air because especially because I don't know how the Norwegian legal system sort of will review certain different types of evidence.   But it's just nice to completely, like, make this guy look like a phony.  

[02:00:16] Unknown:

Well, I will say that Huddl not on his team are the most bullish I've seen them.   And, like, I've been in conversations with them since before the trial.  

[02:00:26] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It's,   you know, people cannot roll over.   And I I'm pretty sure that Bitcoiners have a high interest in also funding it, generally speaking because, you know, you don't want this asshole to have back to our past statement. A lot of people drag their feet until we gave them a 501c3   option, tax deductible option. See, there you go. Because people don't know how to package the they they don't know which which accounts to put in because they don't have PR in their accounting team.   Alright. 0 knowledge Bitcoin blockchain state prover.   That's a Baofu.  

Stark,   proven, stateful Bitcoin client enabling, hyper fast trust, let's sync it, and checkpoints. That's kinda cool.   I don't know too much about this project, but, it seems very interesting.   Is this, a Reuben project or who's behind this? I don't know.   Anyways, looks interesting.  

[02:01:18] Unknown:

I have I've noticed, like, a lot of push for   0 knowledge proofs   and starks and shit on Bitcoin lately on Bitcoin Twitter? Well, the the thing is the privacy people  

[02:01:32] Unknown:

who are, like, more,   like, intense about it and more, like, developers of it have a very hard time with Bitcoin. Right? Because Bitcoin is not private.   It can be used privately but Bitcoin is not private.   So and Bitcoin is not gonna change   to accommodate your privacy   needs.   So,   it's just nice that people will find ways around it and sort of come up with clever ways of of resolving this each of these little problems   and eventually we see this all in all the apps. Right?   So power to you trying to do cool things on the Bitcoin net Bitcoin system  

[02:02:08] Unknown:

that don't need Bitcoin to change for you. The one they keep talking about is roll ups. I haven't, like, looked into it. Yes. I don't like to look into things that require hard forks because it's just a waste of time. It's not gonna happen.   But I wonder if I'm gonna have to, like, be forced to look into it because people keep talking about it. Actually, to be fair, roll ups could happen  

[02:02:29] Unknown:

because there would not be,   that there will be a proof from the previous   roll up and you can technically find the same sort of accountability,   but it anyways, it's unlikely. Just  

[02:02:45] Unknown:

Adam Back said on dispatch that he thinks   within 10 years, we'll have confidential transactions on Bitcoin, 50% chance.  

[02:02:54] Unknown:

Unless the state starts to attack Bitcoiners, I doubt it.   I find it very unlikely.  

[02:03:00] Unknown:

Well,   you're probably going to start attacking Bitcoiners.  

[02:03:04] Unknown:

Not necessarily. Bitcoiners might own the government by then.  

[02:03:07] Unknown:

Maybe.  

[02:03:10] Unknown:

Alright. Mulvard.   They have a new little harder device, which is really  

[02:03:14] Unknown:

cool. I I love Molvad. They're my favorite hosted VPN provider. They seem to run a tight ship. I mean, obviously, hosted VPN providers, you have to trust them even if they say they don't take logs. Yep. I don't know what they wanna use this device for. They haven't really said yet.  

[02:03:31] Unknown:

So   here's the premise. Anybody who's serious about, like,   software   and understand   captureability   or or really attack surface understands that a computer   is hopeless.   Like hopeless and a phone even more hopeless.   Right?   So   if you start from the premise that you cannot defend the 2 devices, your 2 client devices to to the the world, the Internet. Right?   Then what do you do? Well, you build your own hardware, specific purpose   and like fairly secured or just even barely secured is already better than the general purpose device.   So what I believe they're doing here because information was thin,   is they're building a little security device for you to authenticate   into 1, their system, and 2, into other websites.  

So then you don't have the keys for WireGuard and things like that on your desktop.  

[02:04:27] Unknown:

So you, like, plug this in and it signs you into mobile, basically.  

[02:04:31] Unknown:

Exactly. And other websites probably too. So it creates a nice safe tunnel that you don't have to trust that the computer is being   secured,   against the key BAs filtrated. Right?   Now another cool thing that they're doing too is that they understand that all this authentication hardware devices are all fully backdoored.   So what they are doing here is they're using an FPGA,   which is more expensive,   much higher bar of entry technically speaking because an FPGA is essentially a blank   microcontroller   that you get to program   the silicon functions.  

Right?   So you do have to have a much higher technical expertise level to program these things,   and with that you can guarantee   that the chip   is doing what it's doing. And FPGAs also have some other security interesting security features and trade offs.   So it's just it's nice to see people playing around with this. The fact that they did it in the way that they designed it tells me that they have some serious people working on this security problem on their end.   Pretty bullish to see, call it Internet companies   taking security   this seriously.  

So with that,   we are essentially   done   with the  

[02:05:51] Unknown:

all the items. I see. I was gonna make another comment on that, if if that's cool.   Yeah. Of course. If you guys have more to add, please please go for it. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say it's like, I've made this point before online. I've I've pushed back against,   basically like custodial   Bitcoin, you know, and and the idea that it's somehow easier   because   in order to have a good custodial account, even assuming,   say like a Coinbase has   some theoretical perfect security,   you still control a password to get in. And they're still having to authenticate yourself to Coinbase,   to, you know, do the things on your account.  

So because of that, you as the individual still have to,   you know, know how to secure your email.   You need to learn about 2FA.   And specifically, like, you know, probably using Google Authenticator, you know, some TOTP   or as we're kind of seeing here is like people are moving towards web authn   or other schemes that actually use a hardware dongle.   And there's all these, like, things that you have to you end up having to learn a lot of stuff. And it's like, if you use the same energy that it takes to learn about password managers,   about, you know, the the just   all these different 2FA, etcetera, etcetera.  

If you're already putting in that effort to help with a custodial   service, you could just as easily direct that energy into,   learning those same techniques to be able to do custodial   things. And I think seeing things like this,   I think it's good one because, like, we do need better authentication   for online services.   It's really bad right now. I I especially, the the very worst are the ones that basically use, like, phone numbers.  

[02:07:42] Unknown:

Oh my god. It's like the SMS stuff is idiotic. And and there's some services where it's it's almost,  

[02:07:48] Unknown:

inescapable,   which is is really unfortunate. Oh, you can't.  

[02:07:52] Unknown:

You can't set up your account without it. And now all the financial institutions   traditional financial institution moved on to SMS. So now your online banking keeps on sending you messages, and it's so annoying. Yeah. And they cannot keep state right because bankers can't do web interfaces.   So they keep on making you redo the SMS every single time you log in.  

[02:08:14] Unknown:

You know, it's it's pretty annoying. Yeah. So to see this, I it's very exciting to me.   I I I I hope we see more developments on this because for 1, like I said, we do need better web authentication.   But what I also like is that it's   people are learning that like   by nature of what's going on, you actually do need to learn the Bitcoin custody   Yes. Style security hygiene. That's not that's not actually   just, you know,   we like to think of, you know, the a sort of,   mountain man   bunker mindset   is is involved with,   Bitcoin custody.  

But really, it's actually just plain common sense computer   security that's going into it. And so   I like seeing developments like this because people are going to have to learn and this this can help them ease into it. Similar to how I was saying about ledger. It's like,   the more ease of access and normalized it is. So, like, you need to have a little device for things. You need to, you know, write these things down and don't share them with anything anyone.   Not only does that help people to Bitcoin and make them more ready to hold their own keys and take charge of their own money, but it also helps with the rest of their online activity as well.   So I I I think this is great. I think I think,   you know, as as bad as the Internet can be, there's lots of,   room for hope of of various trends that are happening that,   you know, can make us all a lot safer and better able to communicate with one another how we please.  

And I I I don't think the Internet is dead yet. You know, Bitcoin greatly improved  

[02:09:57] Unknown:

computer security.   Like, re reproducible   builds were not a thing before. Yeah. It's a Gideon.   You know, this idea of segregating keys into a device that is, like, source viewable and, like, verifiable was not a thing before.   You know, FIDO keys are just, you know, some hosted trusted thing too. Like,   the amount of like, for example, protecting your secrets from from computer cameras around you when you're doing, like,   you know, the the seed words, like, there is just so much improvement   in, like, self custody of security   that happen, without third parties,   being participating in the security ceremony. Right? Yeah.  



[02:10:42] Unknown:

It's huge. A lot of these things, like, they they existed, but it it felt like you had to be an Edward Snowden   to actually   go along with it. So I don't know if you saw, like, the citizen 5 documentary that Yes. Was years ago. And you're, like, you're watching Edward Snowden   being Edward Snowden, and he's, like, pulling covers   over himself to type in passwords and all this crazy stuff. And   you get the sense. It's like, oh, I have to be a crazy person like that in order to do this computer security.   But we're slowly seeing as I know these these practices, these are just what you have to do if you wanna work with computers.   And we're working towards it, making making it easier for people and and not so crazy. I mean, we've had Ubiquis for for a long time now.  

But yeah. I I I do think that, you know,   Bitcoin I think you're right. Bitcoin has helped kind of normalized a lot of that by giving you Normalize being under the sheets. Yeah. And it gives you it gives you, like, an actual valuable thing to protect. There's also a problem where it's like, you know, I don't know what my emails are worth.  

[02:11:49] Unknown:

Yeah. But that's the thing. Right? I mean, like I know what my Bitcoin is worth.   Everything is a tax surface. Right?   And people have to be more mindful about it, and Bitcoin is teaching people to be more mindful about it. And and there is this huge industry of both, like,   free information and and for profit information on how to become more sovereign and more secure.   Right? Like, the incentives have aligned people to do better.   You know, like, it it did create this incentive set that was not present before.  

[02:12:19] Unknown:

Yeah. It's it's very exciting.   So,   yeah. I mean, I'd I'd be very happy to if I think my my biggest complaint about stuff like Ubiquis is just there's not a good way to do backups.   Like, you almost kinda just have to have It's so stupid.   Multiple YubiKey or something.  

[02:12:38] Unknown:

So most websites let you,   reset your YubiKey with email. Like,   it's it's so like it's so dumb. Like at the end of the day, email is all you need,   to reset any any system. That's,  

[02:12:52] Unknown:

that's okay. So, like, this is also a place to pump Mullvad because I just you know, whether or not you wanna, like, be trusting VPNs and stuff, there's a lot to say about their setup.   And   I like they they have the like, the coolest   user signup flow I've ever seen,   because you basically just generate a Swiss bank number   account number. And that's just that's your passphrase   effectively. That's your identity. And if you wanna put money into that account number, you can. And, you know, there's no   as far as I know, there's no kind of, like, password reset or anything. It's like No email. No password. Just  

[02:13:31] Unknown:

generates an account number and that's your account number. Yeah. So it's just here it is.  

[02:13:36] Unknown:

Yeah. I love that.   Why people make me, you know, that was my thing with Nunchuck when I first started. Like, you know, you needed an email to create an account. I'm like, no. No. No. No. No. You go, come on. It it all, like, you're a bit quieter. Let's let's, like,   just use the the the the private key, the the main private key as your authentication. You either have it or you don't. And if you do, it's already there. So,   you know, use the XFP as your identifier and then it's actually better you x too. There's nothing to do. You're just logged in. Right?   So I I hope   and I I really hope that, like, going forward, like,   you know, people just stop using email for this stuff. It's unnecessary. You can just have a, like, a a shared handshake with some device and you're done.  



[02:14:22] Unknown:

Maybe in the future you have some, like, Tora lightning node that can act as a as a beacon.  

[02:14:27] Unknown:

And and if you're using email like 999%   of all the systems out there,   then at least let me log in with an email to myself and not have to remember a password.   You know, you press the button, like and then they send you an email, you click on the link. Skip the bullshit. Exactly. Just skip all the theater. If it's really just protected by email anyway, might as well. Mhmm. Exactly.  

[02:14:49] Unknown:

And that there's a lot of stuff out there that doesn't need a high level of security. Who cares? You know what I mean? Like Yeah. And I think a VPN is one of them. It's like like, if someone gets your account number, okay, they like, Mullvad allows was it 5 5 devices?   So it's like, you know, someone can start eating up, you know, the bandwidth that Mullvad allows you. And it's like, okay. You're out of $5 and you go make a new one. It's not a big deal. I imagine there's a lot of, services that exist   that could have this model of, like, you just have an identity and you put money into it.  

And if you stop paying, they just delete the stuff and it's all encrypted anyway. Like, you can imagine cloud storage. Yep. You can imagine, like, a a bit word in type thing. But instead, like, you don't have an email or anything. You just, it's a cloud backup. You have the place you can put stuff.   And if you stop paying, they delete   Yep. The thing. And all the stuff was encrypted anyway. So they don't even know what they were storing exactly. They just know it followed some schema.   And and you just go on with that. And I could even like, I don't see why there shouldn't be burner emails like that as well, where you can sign up for a service since, like, you know, let me have $5.5   because I I need to receive an email for from something. So just give me, like, a a fresh email I can have for a little while.  



[02:16:08] Unknown:

That's that's not The reason that it doesn't exist is because of legal liability reasons. Mhmm. Yeah. But no. But you know what? Apple does it, and it's great.   Yeah. But Apple has you, like, dead to run. I know exactly who you are. Yeah. Sure. But but you know what? Like, at the end of the day, like, you know, for that sort of, like, level of of, like, expectation of privacy and security, it's a good trade off. Right? Like But I'm saying that's why it's hard to get, like, no,  

[02:16:35] Unknown:

like, no PII  

[02:16:37] Unknown:

email addresses. Right? Yeah. Mostly. Well, it's also because of spam. Yeah. Like, the it's it's like the the email providers don't wanna get blacklisted. Right? Because they will get blacklisted if a lot of spam comes from their There there was a thread recently about the guy who just, after 20 years, just threw in the towel on self hosting email.  

[02:16:54] Unknown:

Yes. It's hopeless.   And and people people though they see that and they worry. It's like, oh, is that where Bitcoin is gonna go? But it's like, well, there's there is one key difference, which is Bitcoin has value transfer. That's the whole thing. And so it it has what email doesn't have, which is Well, they're closed because that's where Ethereum's going.  

[02:17:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Well, we're gonna learn a lot, right, from from from them. Well, like I said, Bitcoin has value transfer.   Not just Yeah. And I'll listen. Ethereum is essentially wash trading. Right? Like, I mean, it's it's like a bunch of guys just, you know,   doing, a leverage of each other and sort of canceling each other out. It's kinda funny. The the point is is with with Bitcoin, I can imagine actual, you know, spam,  

[02:17:38] Unknown:

removal. You know? Whether it's as simple as what, Sailor talks about with, like, an orange check on various services. Yep. Or it's a hashcash style thing where it's like, yeah, you need to Fidelity bond.   Yeah. All these different stuff. Yeah. So I'm I'm a little I'm I'm less bearish on on Bitcoin nodes and lightning nodes than I am on, email servers for for that reason.  

[02:18:00] Unknown:

For sure. So let me just go through the events now.   We try to bring up all the events that are happening.   Special mention to the Oslo plebes.   They have a monthly gatherings now in Norway.   The software company agent is having a meetup in their workspace.   They're paying for stuff there.   And I wanted to thank, Tubster   for reaching out. He,   he he's active in the show's Telegram. I think it's fun that they do that. There is an Austin Bitcoin Design Club going on.   Bitblockboom   was already already happened. Bautic   eventually happened. BTC Asores,   it's happening, I think, Thursday or Friday this week.  

Bitcoin Amsterdam, October.   Bitcoin collective,   October.   The Atlanta Bitcoin conference   is in October as well.   And adopting Bitcoin is in November. Oh, and one more configurable 2023. So And there's the the Bitcoin Africa conference in December. Okay. We should add to the show notes. By the way, we have links for everything talked in the show on the show notes. But dear conference organizers,   can we please,   skip,   August, September,   October,   and November, and start with you can do a conference per day after deer season.   Essentially, those are the rules. I don't make the rules,   and then we can all attend all the conferences through the North American Winter,   and then in May we return to our family lives from May until November.  

That would be my dream set up for conferences.  

[02:19:36] Unknown:

Odell, is that a Africa conference? Is that is that in,  

[02:19:40] Unknown:

Ghana? Is that correct? Yeah. It's in the capital of Ghana. Accra Accra.  

[02:19:45] Unknown:

Pretty cool. Are you going?  

[02:19:48] Unknown:

No. I'm I'm a I'm a little bit burnt out on conferences. I need to focus on family.   See, this is what I'm saying. It's gonna be good. It's they have a they have a good lineup already, and,   Farida is running it, and she's awesome. Cool. Wonderful.   That one, like, I felt really bad saying no to. Oh.  

[02:20:07] Unknown:

Oh, yeah. I I heard it. I, like, I wish I could go.  

[02:20:11] Unknown:

Same, same here. Kinda sucks because, you know, it's like finally   some real Bitcoin conferences in Africa and, I don't know, timing is bad.   But I hope other people will go. There's a lot of people going. There will be remote people as well.   There is so many Bitcoiners now to go represent   and and sort of like good practices and and like, you know, like   things that us, the Bitcoin Council   of Maximalism   approve.   So these are all approved Bitcoiners.  

[02:20:41] Unknown:

Fundamentalist   approved?  

[02:20:42] Unknown:

That's right. They're all fundamentally   fundamentalists   and fundamentally approved. Yes. So I I don't know. I think we're gonna be we're gonna be okay.   Do you guys have any thoughts?   Matt, any thoughts? Final closing thoughts?  

[02:20:59] Unknown:

No. I'm I'm pretty exhausted right now. I just wanted to thank Bitstien for joining me and MBK on our show.  

[02:21:06] Unknown:

Alright. Thank you for having me. And I I hope you guys and I hope Topster,   are not   so bummed by the, shitcoin apologist that just infested this this fine fine show.  

[02:21:18] Unknown:

So, Bitstien,   Matt is trolling you because, he he, refused to acknowledge his guest place into the show.   He makes a very concerted effort into being,   what he wants strives to be one day a co host of such,   notor   notoriety podcast.  

[02:21:37] Unknown:

So he's shit hosting.   NVK NVK keeps trying to shake me by giving me no notice on the podcast. So, like, last night, he was, like, tomorrow morning at 8:30 EST. I'm recording with Bitzstein and Pierre. You're welcome to join if you want to. So then I have to move things around to jump on. Actually, Matt, I'm gonna check the the time line here. I am pretty sure I told you before that. But anyways I assume you guys don't usually do it this early. No. I'm just trying to shake these. This is also, like, just testing Odell is, like, how how determined. That's right. This is like a a fight club thing or it's like he has to you're gonna have, like, a a 3 AM Bitcoin review, and it's like he has to he has to show up to show his actual loyalty.  

[02:22:19] Unknown:

That's right. So normally I like to do these things, post noon so that he can have adult beverages,   while you you do this. I am a a noon, post noon adult beverage believer.  

[02:22:31] Unknown:

So I mean, it's 10 AM in Texas. So I guarantee there's plenty of people   sitting in their garages,   in various towns Yeah. Popping open a beer even though it's a Tuesday too. Who cares?  

[02:22:43] Unknown:

Yeah. Anyways. Well, listen guys. I I I really, really appreciate,   you guys coming on. It's,   it it really is a pleasure. It's nice to have people who who know the space, know what the fuck they're talking about,   have opinions that that are of consequence,   and, and and go through the arduous barring list   that we always fail to be impartial with.  

[02:23:08] Unknown:

And, Yeah. This this was great. It it's hard to believe that there used to be a time that I could actually keep up with everything.   It's impossible.  

[02:23:17] Unknown:

Love to see it. Exactly. Yeah.  

[02:23:20] Unknown:

The main reason to make the show is because, you know, the shit creditors go and say, oh, nobody's building Ethereum Bigo. Look, all the devs are doing cool JavaScript stuff on top of Ethereum.   And I'm like, hang on a second. There is enough here to do a 5 hour show if you wanted to. Right? So yeah. I I appreciate   all this. Thank you very much   and   I hope I hope you guys listen to the next one. Oh, and if   you are coming on this first time, there is a fantastic episode about,   wallets in general   with wallet experts, security experts,  

[02:23:54] Unknown:

on episode 5. It was it was very good. I I really, really enjoyed that one.  

[02:23:59] Unknown:

I was so happy they joined me and MBK on our show.  

[02:24:06] Unknown:

And with that,   thank you. Take care, guys. Have a good one. Cheers.   Thanks for listening and going through another boring list of updates once again. Don't forget to get in touch on Twitter at Bitcoin review HQ or the Telegram Bitcoin review pod or email bitcoin review atquaintite.com.   Remember, I don't have a crystal ball. So if you have a cool project you're working on, do make sure to get in touch with us.   And if you're still not bored, you can follow me on Twitter at nmickee.