Citadel Dispatch

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We had some audio issues on this one. Tried our best to clean it up. Hope yall find it helpful.

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[00:00:01] Unknown:

Hello.   Welcome to the Bitcoin review,   where we'll boringly   go over the majority of the project's news and updates,   software, events, and everything you can think of that we want to talk about.   So do take offense if we don't make don't mention your project,   or do me a favor and actually contact me to let me know about your news, cause otherwise I don't have a crystal ball. Anyways, thanks everybody for coming here. Today we have Justin Moon   and Matt Hodele   as guests.   Yo yo yo.  

[00:00:36] Unknown:

It's great to be here.  

[00:00:38] Unknown:

Alright, guys.   So, we have the list. Why don't we just go right into it? Because the whole point of this spot is to have the least amount of opinions.  

[00:00:47] Unknown:

Well, before we do that, MBK,   you know, I joined you for the the first episode of this rep,   and you told me you were just using me using me for engagement, and you're gonna get new guests every week. That's right. And you asked me to come on for week 2. So where do we stand on that?  

[00:01:04] Unknown:

Well, the problem is the engagement's still not good enough, so we might need a a little bit more of a push, you know, in a few more episodes.   But then don't worry, you fizzle up.  

[00:01:14] Unknown:

I'm I'm looking forward to the rug pull.  

[00:01:17] Unknown:

I mean, technically, we're already starting   that by having Justin here, and maybe maybe if Justin had his   wonderful mullet on screen, maybe we would be able to replace you, but I don't think we're full on ready.  

[00:01:30] Unknown:

Hey. I know what I'm worth, envy   k. Not so fast.  

[00:01:34] Unknown:

No. But in all seriousness, I'm very grateful for the 2 guests. They're they're very well known people in the community,   and I very much   appreciate their opinions about the project so they'll they'll be very helpful with us going through this this list.   And with that,   let's start with the software releases and project updates.   So BTC pay server 1.6,   They apparently had a reasonably sized vulnerability that was disclosed via CVE, which is the correct way to make   responsible disclosures.   Note that people making disclosures   CVEs.  

They have a new lightning dashboard,   They have invoice receipts.   They have automatic emails for every event,   l n URLs,   and Joomla integration. Oh, also NFC support plug ins. So maybe that's helpful to me.   So do you guys have any comments about, BTC   Pay server re release?  

[00:02:33] Unknown:

Well, I would just jump in here real quick. First thing is I think they did a release right after this, because there's a bug.   Oh, great. So what is it? 1.6.1,   I think, is the correct one.  

[00:02:44] Unknown:

Alright. So I'll add that as a plus.  

[00:02:47] Unknown:

The key thing is is they were very,   they were very vague about the vulnerability intentionally, and they said they're gonna release what the actual vulnerability that this release patch is in 6 to 12 months.   But if you if you read the blog post, it seems like it's pretty severe. So,   if you're calling BTCPay,   you should definitely you should definitely update ASAP as, like, the number one takeaway here. And one thing I would note is if you're using Nodle,   you may have noticed that they haven't updated BTCPay in a long time.   First of all, is   intending   to   there was some, like, infrastructure that he needed to clean up on the back end before he could continue updating BTCPay, so he's doing that. And second of all,   BTCPay on Nodal hasn't been updated in such a long time that it's not vulnerable to this vulnerability,   the CFE.  



[00:03:38] Unknown:

See, my personal,   motto is don't update anything unless you really want the new thing that the the update has   or it's found out that your specific version is at risk.   Not updating is great. I must be running at least 3 or 4 OSX versions behind.  

[00:03:58] Unknown:

I gotta say, I haven't used b t was it I was a BTCPay   power user. I was a BTC pay power user in the early days and then haven't used it much recently, but the UI is way better than it used to be.  

[00:04:09] Unknown:

That's amazing.  

[00:04:10] Unknown:

Yeah. That is a that is a reason to upgrade right there.  

[00:04:13] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It's starting to look like,   so I have, Stripe as   our, Kakabuks payment processor.   And,   you know, Stripe is is is incredible. Right? I mean, like beautiful UI, incredible API. Those guys are pros.   And, and it's nice to see   BTCPay, the open version, right, of something like that to start to look like very professional. It's it's,   it's very nice for merchants that are not solely technical.   Do you know anything about the NFC support?  

[00:04:47] Unknown:

NFC, what, in BTC pay? Yeah.   No. How would that look?  

[00:04:53] Unknown:

I I don't know. I you know, just just a caveat for most people listening. You know, the the list of updates is really big.   So, you know, none of us has time to actually go through, like, all the minutiae on it. We're just gonna comment on the things we hear. It's literally a it's literally a podcast about updates, and then Enrique starts it off with telling you that he doesn't update anything.  

[00:05:14] Unknown:

I, Well, it wouldn't be right put gold card number 1. He had to put gold card number 2. You know? Just Exactly. Yeah. This is really just a a massive coin kite propaganda play.  

[00:05:25] Unknown:

But,   as far as NFC goes, I mean, it'd be cool to see NFC in as many things as possible. Obviously,  

[00:05:32] Unknown:

MBK is just trying to shill his his brand new product. There's I have a feeling that the NFC support that PTC pay server has has nothing to do with our NFC.  

[00:05:42] Unknown:

It's probably for store payments.   Yeah. It's probably for payments at terminals. Yeah. So I I that's right.  

[00:05:49] Unknown:

If you click into it, it says, if you have a browser   if you have a browser compatible NFC phone, currently only Chrome on Android,   you can use our point of sale to make NFC payments. So this would be like, you can receive you can receive payments using this in the browser, which is pretty cool. Yeah. That's that's that's amazing. That's how  

[00:06:09] Unknown:

you know, the so America never really adopted chip and pin,   so it's just lip frogging from chip and pin to phone NFC for credit cards.   I think you're gonna see a lot of that in the in the market.   Alright. One  

[00:06:23] Unknown:

thing I would one thing I would just jump in here real quick on the BTCPay topic,   In terms of, like, key security on the receiving side,   the on chain, it's really cool the way BTCPay has it set up, so you never   have to actually keep your keys hot.   You can just keep your keys on a on a cold card or some other kind of cold storage,   and you just upload the XPUB. So you're able to receive to new addresses, but your keys aren't actually on   on the server. Yeah. It's always been like that. Right? Lightning, it's different. Yeah. With Lightning, it's different. I just I'm thinking from, like, the receiving side   Right. About NFC support. You don't really need   that.  



[00:07:01] Unknown:

So so how is the lnurl   withdraw for for payouts   refunds is gonna work?   So you just do a, like, essentially a request payment back to the other counterparty?  

[00:07:13] Unknown:

I have no idea. Okay. I'm guessing they send you an email on URL and you scan it and you get paid. Okay.  

[00:07:20] Unknown:

Well, traditionally,   that's that's the the big sort of drawback from a merchant perspective   when it comes to Bitcoin and Lightning is that there there is no pool   version,   like credit cards do. So for for subscriptions and things like that it's tricky. You know, consumers won't pay unless you take the money from them.   So, yeah. We'll we'll see how that develop.   Alright. So,   the reason why I brought up code card mark for 505,   it didn't actually come out yet, it's about to.   It's because   we are proposing a BIP85   password extension.  

So we want to extend the BIP85   to support password generations   as well. So these are deterministically   generated   passwords.   What's cool about that is,   say you have a spare code card that you use for this,   you can actually plug it in the USB and make code card emulate a keyboard. So it pushes the password to the input field.   Now are you gonna use this for Gmail? No. That's dumb.   When you're gonna use this is for, like, passwords that really matter. Say your SSH,   encryption password,   you know, your Cloudflare password,   like things that you're a little bit more concerned,   that you don't necessarily want a computer password manager to have, but you don't wanna have a bunch of backups. So imagine just having like a single private key that rules all your passwords   for this kind of stuff.  

I think it would be, very useful.   So,   maybe we will send an email to the mailing list soon,   sort of asking for reviews or or, suggestions.   So that's that.   Alright. So Electron private server, that's a Chris Peltier project.   It was a small update. Essentially just, he just fixed a few dependencies there,   with the new core.   Oh, yeah. And he had a signet support.   What else?   More coin kite chilling here. The sets card, tap signer sets chip. I   listened twice because I screwed up.   The bug fixes,   we actually, released, 1.0.2,   for the firmware on the cards. So for the devs out there, they have the old cards   do request new cards because there is a few more checks on how the cards are verified,   which made it even nicer.  

And,   the release is imminent.   We should start shipping soon.   And I'll bump this the bottom there. And there is also   a gallery now for sets shipped.   So that,   artists can submit their art signed by their card   with a picture, and essentially, it's the correct NFT.   And there is an NFC reader now in the store and   a CLI program for them to submit the art that they can sign themselves.   So the artist embeds the SatCHIP,   and then, I guess,   you can tap it with your phone, and then it pulls up your website.   Yeah. So give you a bunch of information. Is that how it works? Yeah. It's it's that plus a little more. So   so essentially, you have a piece of data that essentially certifies the art.  

And, and then the new owner of the art takes the card. People were doing this with OpenDimes,   but OpenDime was not designed to do that. So we figured, hey. Might as well, support that properly and and create the the right sort of UX.   So it's basically a chain of custody for art almost? That's right. Well, I wouldn't say chain of custody is more like making art a bear a verifiable bear,   bear instrument.  

[00:11:19] Unknown:

Yeah. But you you can say, like, this was originally from the,   the Yes. The artist. Like, you can you can you can, like because that's always the problem with art, especially old artists. You don't know Mhmm. Whether it's real or not.  

[00:11:34] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, like, technically, you could sign any data. Right? So,   let's say   you   have, like, a whole   whole sort of,   like, plethora   of, like, super high definition images of the of the artwork and all this stuff. You could create a hash of that and then sign the hash plus a few other bits of data   and   and put it out into the world.   And that means that at least you have a chain   of   of say provable ownership   or or provability,   certification of the art really,   through that,   without,   without needing a token or a blockchain.   You could even put into all the time stamps   and, break Bitcoin.  

Alright.   C k tap protocol got updated.  

[00:12:33] Unknown:

Wait. Do you wanna go into that? Why does open time stamps integration. Break Bitcoin?  

[00:12:39] Unknown:

Oh, remember, I think, somebody pointed out that open time stamps actually caused a hard fork of Bitcoin or something. I was being kind of facetious.   But I have never I didn't bother looking into it, but apparently, there was a problem with that. Justin, did you did you notice that I think might have been on the mailing list or not?  

[00:13:00] Unknown:

I have not been paying attention to the mailing list. It's become unbearable.  

[00:13:04] Unknown:

Yes.   We all agree that mailing list became essentially Twitter now about   data emissions. It's it's   it's literally unbearable.   The emissions are not gonna happen, period.  

[00:13:18] Unknown:

At least not on my note. Yeah. I mean, there's no reason for debate. Just fucking fork and see  

[00:13:25] Unknown:

what   happens. That that's right. Right? I mean or create futures for it. Make a make a emissions,   an emissions fork   token and put on Bitfinex. No. Sorry. On Bitmax.   Anyways, moving on.   CKTAP   protocol   105.   It adds the ability of a nonheartened nerve vision.   It's it's also Quangay.  

[00:13:55] Unknown:

Oh, okay.  

[00:13:58] Unknown:

That's,   so that's essentially the protocol to talk to the cards.   We hope that this becomes a standard and other people use it too.   Right.   And then Just just to that You have what? You have   you have 5 coin guide updates in here. Right? No. I'm actually deleting the last one there because it was just double entry. Oh, I see. Okay.   You know, the the the thing is, like, if if other projects did the favor and sent me more   stuff,   you know, to make my life easier with this, it would be great.  

[00:14:38] Unknown:

So where what's the best way for them to send it? Just to let them know.  

[00:14:42] Unknown:

Yes. That's a great idea, Matt. So, what people need to do is either go on the website, click on the right side, then submit story,   or email me at, Bitcoin review atquaint.com   or go on the Telegram.   Any any of the places, really. I mean, or go on GitHub on the next pull request for the next episode and comment there.   That'll be great.   It is a challenge to find,   the specific things.   So, you know, doing best efforts here.   Oh, and by the way, my wife mentioned listening to the first episode that I do not introduce myself.   I I did tell her that it's probably a good idea.  

Anyways, so moving on.   Live and learn. Okay. So I mentioned the oh, yeah. So the reason why we mentioned the CKD app protocol,   aside from being a properly boring update,   is that the CK tap react native   library,   there was a bounty on that, and that was claimed by the Hexa guys.   The Hexa guys built   a React Native library for   the CoinGeide cards.   It was released. There's still a few more things sorta to be fixed, but,   it's getting there.   And,   so that was fun. That was a cool bounty being claimed. Check out the Bitcoin Bounty   bitcoin bounties.org.  

There is a lot of, a lot of Bitcoin there up for claims for devs.   Alright.   So now moving on to Zeus   version 0.6.5   release.   Now you can send to Taproot.   You saved   Taproot.   They have some enhancement Android identity support.   I wonder why.   And, they have a a much improved Spark support.   Do, any of you lightning guys, have some comments on that?  

[00:16:54] Unknown:

I fucking love Zeus. Zeus is, the main way I interact with my lightning node.   Just shout out to Evan and the rest of the team over there.   They've made really good improvements on interface. The interface is very, very clean right now.  

[00:17:08] Unknown:

Nice.   Yeah. Zeus Zeus is a pretty cool project.  

[00:17:13] Unknown:

Having you do updated the whole the whole UI redesign.   That's much better now. It looks, you know? Yeah. It looks, it's very Greek.   You know? It's pretty cool, the, like, the aesthetic they got going on there. It's way, way, way better.  

[00:17:28] Unknown:

Yes.  

[00:17:31] Unknown:

Alright. Big, Blockstream QT,   a green QT released 1.1.2.   So they refactored the JSON version.   They fixed the UTF 8 memos.   That's a nice one.   And they,   fix, fix for assets with no ticker or issuer. I was actually using it today, and the USD   quotes were not showing up, so something must have broken with their, Bitfinex,   API.   I wish they would have more,   choices of, price sources. Do you guys use green at all?  

[00:18:08] Unknown:

I haven't used green since   like, 5 years or 4 years or something like that.  

[00:18:15] Unknown:

They're they're new. This is very recent.   One PetPeev I had is that I I like their wallet. I just hated   the their weird multisig thing.   So,   I was waiting for them to to launch single sig for small amounts.   Right? With that specific UI that they have and they have. So now now that works. And it's nice because it has a desktop version too. Right? So you can have a spending wallet that you have, 2 two sources of of interaction points. Do they have coin control yet? Like that.  

[00:18:46] Unknown:

No.   I know they they, like, make it easy to do accounts. They make it easy to do accounts, so you can use that as, like, a quasi coin control, but it'd be nice to see actual coin control with labeling.  

[00:18:58] Unknown:

You know, for for for the very, very small spending wallet, I don't really care   as much.   I I have sort of, like, different wallets for different things. That's kinda how I Do you actually use liquid? For spending wallets?  

[00:19:14] Unknown:

No. I feel like that would be the main reason for me to use it if I was gonna use liquid, which I don't. Because, like, why I feel like it's hard to pick up a bit. If I want an on chain only wallet, I'll use BlueWallet.  

[00:19:29] Unknown:

I like BlueWallet. The problem is I've been having a lot of issues with transactions getting stuck, negative fees, and all like, things like that. Interesting.  

[00:19:38] Unknown:

So, yeah.  

[00:19:40] Unknown:

Well, for for spending, moving spend on Yeah. You could do desktop and mobile. How do you, like, share the seed between the two things? Oh, it's the same. You load the seed. It's the same derivation path, so it doesn't matter. Right? The transactions just show up. Yeah. The the metadata doesn't. Right? So you have to re input the metadata.   Which for all these wallets to have a server,   I mean, why don't they just do end to end encryption and and, like, based on your seed. Right? I'm pretty sure they do that. For the don't the account show up? I thought they No. The accounts do, but not the notes.  

[00:20:16] Unknown:

Right. Not the not the On each transaction. But I thought they don't have coin control. They have you can do notes on each transact transaction now?  

[00:20:24] Unknown:

Yeah. But but only on the way out. Right? Not not on your TXOs.   Oh, I see. Okay. Like, if you spend you need for accounting. Right? It's it's not it's not for privacy sake. It's just for accounting sake.  

[00:20:36] Unknown:

Funny story.   That's probably my   one of my largest open source contributions was,   Green Wallet was not intend encrypting   their   their account labels.   And I pointed it out to them and said, you should just encrypt it with the seed, and they did that. So shout out to me.  

[00:20:58] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. We've been we've been champions on this for many, many years. It's I really can't comprehend why any project that has a Bitcoin seed in it   would require you to do accounts, to do passwords, to do anything because you can just use the seed   to be your private key for the other stuff. Like,   I brought this up with Hugo with the, Nunchuk   and Nunchuk does that now. So you don't have to create an account with Vimeo anymore, which is nice.   And, they they are adding or added a single sig now. Man, Nunchuk is looking awesome.   I think I think it's gonna be the next one that sort of, like, everybody uses. It's all native too for both platforms.  

They rewrote everything.   And,   you know,   they don't they don't do like the JavaScript guys where they serialize, deserialize, serialize, deserialize, deserialize   the secrets 50 times in different, like, parts of the software   that that adds a lot of holes.   Anyways,   pretty happy about that. They don't have an update this week.   Right. Next,   Sparrow,   1.6.5.   They add, they added Nano,   Ledger Nano s plus support, probably because HWI got updated a few weeks ago.   They allow now   watch only key stores to enable signing from matching connected hardware. Oh, that's nice.   So   essentially, what that does is as long as   the   the key store matches, I think, the XFP,   Right? So so the the the ID of their wallet.  

I think   it's hardware sort of agnostic. It doesn't matter which hardware   device has the private keys. As long as the XFP matches, it should just recognize it as that signer.  

[00:22:54] Unknown:

Yeah. If you set if you set the wallet up with Trezor and then move it over to a cold card, you can still sign with that if the if if Yeah. Because the yeah. The XFP is is derived from the seed. Yeah. That makes sense.  

[00:23:05] Unknown:

Yeah. That's the way it should be. Right? I mean,   it's actually even more secure. Like if like the software wallets don't even know which hardware are you using,   that would be my preference.   Anyways, I import get gap limit from Electrum wallets. That's great. That's also a really nice   feature for people who are migrating from Electrum.   So now you don't have to worry about,   like, going on a on a gap limit hunt   to find your coins.   That's nice. And, lots of bug fixes. I'm sure I I took the liberty of changing the last point there. Well, massive shout out to Craig Craig Raw, who's,  

[00:23:45] Unknown:

the lead maintainer and pretty much, like, the one man legend behind Sparrow Wallet. It's quickly become my favorite desktop wallet.   And,   the idea that basically he was sitting there, and he was like, I don't really   I don't really like all the desktop wallets that are available. I'm gonna build my own is one of my favorite parts about the open source ecosystem and and the Bitcoin ecosystem.  

[00:24:09] Unknown:

I mean, that that's how the best projects always start. Right? Like, it it's people who can do scratching their own itch.   That that's how I think, like, most   Bitcoin projects started, including Bitcoin itself.   So I thought she was sitting there. I wish I could send money without permission.   Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna start Dequay.  

[00:24:33] Unknown:

Yeah. He came to my our meetup in Austin a couple months ago, and,   it was interesting talking to him how he chooses features and stuff. He said he basically waits until some other project prove,   Craig Craig Oh, Craig Wright. Yes. Sparrow? Craig Raw. No. Craig Raw. Yeah.   Yeah. So he, yeah, he just waits for another project to prove out some idea, like BIP 47 or some of the samurai coin coin joining or,   the, HWI, and these things just waits for it to work. And then he implements in his own wall, which I think is kind of a nice,   an interesting attitude. He just waits waits for someone else to prove that it works, and then just   he he just sort of waits for these for this to happen and  

[00:25:33] Unknown:

out there,   hardware 2, especially stuff that just works,   is that there is essentially, like, 1 or 2 great   dudes who write   all the hard stuff,   most of the stuff,   and   then   and then sort of like it gets sort of like released through this like beautiful   marketing   package of a company kind of thing.   But, you know, for the longest time,   Facebook   had like 4 guys who did all the merging of the 5,000 engineers in the company.   You know, Google   Google has this this entities   called,   independent consultants or something like that. It's essentially people who are not HR compatible.   And these are the people who actually do all the hardship to Google and all of them essentially just report directly to an executive as a, as a consultant   so they don't have issues with HR.  

It's kind of fascinating to me that to this day, it's still pretty true in in, like, most hard stuff out there.   And it kinda makes sense.   A lot of projects are essentially like the the the presentation of, like, just like a handful of people.   It just gets sort of like filtered and softened   by the marketing department.   Anyways,   alright.   So next is, blue wallet,   6.3.1.   It was a tiny release, but in between that there was another one, the 6.3.0.   So I figured I'd bring it up.   So they fixed the lightning wallet, fail on their tor.   The passphrase support on multisig, that's nice.  

Import bp39multi   language,   lnurl   off.   I have some comments on BIP 39 multi language. I am not a fan, generally speaking.   I am an English maximalist when it comes to BIP 39   because I think a lot of people get screwed.   Their variation language may not be supported by most projects on the day that they need,   but the base   version, which is the language that the the English version will, and is also the simplest,   smallest   character subset.   So, I just wanna stick it out there that if you can use the the English version, even if it's not your native language, it's probably safer and better. Isn't that counterintuitive in this point? Because you're saying  

[00:28:04] Unknown:

you're saying that it's hard to restore from the other languages. Well, now it's easier because BlueLaw is available for iPhone and Android. That's 1. It's completely false. And what if they're not around? Well, it's completely false, and you can support. It's false and you can use it with your own nodes. So, I mean, I think this is a massive win for multi language. People can't false build  

[00:28:23] Unknown:

their own iOS wallet that easy.  

[00:28:26] Unknown:

But I'm saying, like, if if if BlueWallet, the company disappears,   you can just take the the previous release, and now you have strong multi language support. I mean, I talk to a lot of people in Latin America, for instance.   They really struggle with the English words.   So it's kinda good to see at least, you know, the major languages supported.  

[00:28:46] Unknown:

I don't know. I mean, like, I learned English not too long ago. And, And you're still learning Even though even though I get a lot of spelling mistakes and everything.   I you know, I'm surviving.   I I listen.   I I think it's a it's a it's a very awful way of of, like,   existing in the world by, like, sort of forcing your language choice on the rest of the world.   But at the same time,   it's very hard not to because unlike like, say for example, temperature that's only got, like, really 3 main contenders,   Languages have, like, you know, 100.   I don't know. It could get very dicey,   especially when you start supporting pass phrases as well.  

Then there is, like, the checks for it.   I think there's gonna be a lot more rooms for bugs as well   that won't be known   because nobody's gonna test all the languages   on the software.   I I just find it risky   for for stuff that is, like, this core to your financial,   existence.   I I would personally avoid it.  

[00:29:59] Unknown:

Well, I mean, there's 2 things there. I mean, I I think I agree with the recommendation that if you can use the English words, use the English words to get more support.   But, also, if you're not, this is a massive update for you.  

[00:30:13] Unknown:

True. True. Options.  

[00:30:17] Unknown:

Starting with the embassy 10, 15 years, I bet   they'll in 10, 15 years, I bet all languages will be supported. So it's, you know, it just takes a while to get there.  

[00:30:26] Unknown:

One one thing I did notice was there was a shitty,   Chinese wallet   that sent me, it was a it was a hardware wallet plus mobile phone   app,   that sent me a few of those. That sent me a free free hardware trying to get me to shill it, and they were unsuccessful. But I noticed some other Bitcoin accounts did shill it.   I'm not gonna name names right now. It was a little bit a while ago, but I did test out the wallet,   and they used,   a nonstandard,   like, number system.   And   I didn't love that, but also at the same time, I, like, talked to their team.   And, you know, they have mostly Chinese speakers, Mandarin speakers   that really, really struggle with seed words as a concept. And for them, they were like, numbers are universal.  



[00:31:18] Unknown:

So they went with this number seed setup. Well, the problem with numbers, you're gonna need a lot of numbers.  

[00:31:23] Unknown:

Yeah. There were a lot of numbers. The entropy space  

[00:31:26] Unknown:

is a lot it's a lot smaller. Right?   So, yeah, I mean,   this there there were no letters at all?  

[00:31:35] Unknown:

It was just numbers only. I don't this was a couple years ago. How long was the seed? How long was the number? It was it was pretty long.  

[00:31:46] Unknown:

You would have to be  

[00:31:50] Unknown:

man.  

[00:31:53] Unknown:

Well, it really is was it 10 to the 256?  

[00:31:56] Unknown:

Well, what they might have done was, now that I'm thinking back, they might have had the numbers correspond   to the word list numbers.   Yeah. No. That that that that's still valid. I've seen it before. That's probably it. Like, how many there's, like, 2048, I think, seed words. Something words. Yeah. 2048. And something words.   So, like, each each so there's four four numbers up to four numbers for each word,   and that's what they did.  

[00:32:23] Unknown:

Oh, that's that's reasonable.   I I've seen those before for backup, and and I actually quite like it, to just use the number for the word.  

[00:32:32] Unknown:

But that's just remapping. Right? That you're still safe there and you're still leveraging everything that, BP 39 is. But that's actually an interesting balance. I don't remember exactly how they did it, but that's an interesting balance when you talk about multi language support.   If you do the numbers based on the English,   the the the main English seed list seed word list,   then you still have   if if that wallet appears, they can always pull up that list   and then get the English words   and import somewhere else. Do is  

[00:33:03] Unknown:

pick   12 or 24   numbers   out of   2,048   without repeating them.   That's very, very straightforward.  

[00:33:13] Unknown:

Right. Plus the checksum.  

[00:33:16] Unknown:

No. The the no. That that's   no. That the the 12 includes the checksum.  

[00:33:21] Unknown:

Right. But you can't do that randomly. You have to derive that from the previous 11 or 23. Right? You have to derive the last one. So they will probably make them pick,  

[00:33:29] Unknown:

11.   Well, you know, knowing knowing, not knowing the wallet, but the way you describing that I assume that the user has no choice in which how the how the the words are picked. I'm sure it's just given to them. Yeah. Zero choice. They just  

[00:33:46] Unknown:

they just they just give it to you. Security.  

[00:33:52] Unknown:

I'm sure they use   udev to generate,   entropy,   from Android.   Anyways.   Okay. So moving on to start 9.   EmbaseOS   0.3.1   was released,   and, they have a new password reset flow,   selective backups,   JavaScript   execution environment.   I assume that just means that it's a segregated environment.   Library to import your embassy package projects,   ability to side load packages directly from embassy dashboard,   and they did a bunch of other little improvements.   I think I saw some other EmbaseOS,   update.   Something about making it easy to   do something. Let's take a quick look here.  

Oh, yes.   So somebody made a wrapper   or a guide to   make it easy to import or run   bisque   on start 9. That's pretty cool.   Bisk is a very interesting project,   for people that want to, to to trade   off   of, KYC exchanges.  

[00:35:18] Unknown:

Oh, that's kinda I think that's a first for one of these node projects.  

[00:35:22] Unknown:

Yes. There is a web UI I haven't used in god knows how long.   I've actually been curious if they do gift cards.  

[00:35:31] Unknown:

Are are there any other node projects that offer bisque support?  

[00:35:36] Unknown:

I don't know. I don't think so. I can't imagine it's that hard to integrate, with the other nodes since it's   sort   of   well, if anybody heard about it or is from another project, this is a great   chance to   to shield your project on the next episode.   You   know, just email me,   and we will list it. We are very interested in updates of projects.   All right,   we're moving on to the next list.   I call it a noteworthy list. So it's not necessarily software releases,   not certainly just software,   but it's like stuff that people are working on that got released   or or is gonna be released.  

So,   Marshall,   if you guys know OGBTC   on Twitter,   he released his video   using   a board that him and some Chinese friends created   to overclock,   an s 19.   Okay, from 95 terra ash to a   111, terra ash   without, changing the firmware, without doing anything. So no warranty voided.   It's actually a man in the middle. It's kinda brilliant.   And I think they were selling for, like, around $200   or something like that. So he was taking orders,   from Twitter.   That's pretty cool. Mind you, this is a guy who runs one of the biggest mining operations in the world.  

[00:37:11] Unknown:

I mean, that's pretty massive. What's that? That's like a almost a 15%   performance improvement. Yes.  

[00:37:17] Unknown:

It's it's just pretty cool. I mean, I just love that people are doing that, especially guys like him.   It's like, I'm sure he's not running that in his mind.  

[00:37:26] Unknown:

And just anyone for the   the sleep miner is really cool. Anyone who's running an s 19 that's not using that is at a disadvantage now.   Yep.  

[00:37:38] Unknown:

What else?   Nunchuck,   Tapsigner.   Nunchuck did a a demo,   using Tapsigner to cosign.   So just you just tap, give the PIN,   and you cosign   a multisig   via NFC.   That that was really really cool.   They're gonna release that version of the app soon.   I happen to have a a version of the app.   APK is really, really nice.   What else?  

[00:38:10] Unknown:

When you release   the the demo video, is that you doing the demo?   No. That was that was Hugo sending it to me. Did you see I called out that it didn't look like it was your hands in the RHR? And he's and Marty said it was your hands, and I said, no. I'm I'm pretty sure that's R and MBK's hands.   You know my fingerprint. Yeah. So just shout out shout out to me on on spotting that in the video.  

[00:38:34] Unknown:

Well done.  

[00:38:37] Unknown:

Glad we got that settled.  

[00:38:39] Unknown:

Have you seen so this Mike Kelly guy on Twitter,   he created a private club essentially,   and he's   the authentication with the cards to do   a to do   essentially, he wants to do proof of reserves for tabs, bar tabs, where you just leave the card on the, like, a a Sats card, a loaded Sats card. You leave it at the the the   the bar people,   as a collateral.   And also use it to authenticate to get into the bar, into this private club.   I found that to be kinda cool.   I think that that has some lags.  

[00:39:16] Unknown:

So does that mean you have to be That won't happen. Does that mean you have to be a certain level of wealthy to enter the bar? Like, is it like if you don't have a million sats, you're not allowed to be a part of it? I'm sure they would just they do make the tab the size of your collateral probably. That's it.   Is it is I mean, the entering is kinda cool because you can attach memberships   to the private key, public key pair. Mhmm.   But,   when it actually comes time to paying at the bar,   I feel like   that's kind of old world thinking, the tab concept in general. Like, why not just every time you get a drink, if the NFC works really well,   just tap to pay every time you get a drink instead   of giving them the card to hold on to?  



[00:40:01] Unknown:

I I mean, I don't know. I like the idea   of collateral   based interactions,   especially with bare instruments.   But, yeah, I I mean, maybe maybe that's the way it works. Maybe, maybe just tap of your lightning wallet to pay   each interaction.  

[00:40:20] Unknown:

I'm just thinking, like, I have you know, I prefer cash, but I have a lot of alcoholic,   friends.   And, you know, some bars   some bars do a tab system,   where they just swipe your card your credit card once, and then they give you back the card, and then   other ones hold on to the card. And,   when the places hold on to the card, I've seen many, many times people wake up the next morning, and they're like, fuck. My credit card's still there?   And at least they have the ability to cancel it. They have, like, fraud checks and stuff. But if you, like, leave your Bitcoin at the bar,  

[00:40:52] Unknown:

like, that would probably decide. A little different. Right? Because this is, this is for private clubs.   Like, that was his idea. So maybe for the private club, there is, like, other benefits that you might wanna leave your collateral there. I don't know. But then if you have a maybe  

[00:41:08] Unknown:

So I know I'm, like, jumping like, I I'm thinking out loud mostly, but, you know, we we just launched a private Bitcoin club in Nashville called Bitcoin Park. That's where I am right now.   And and it's a membership system.   And so, like, I've been thinking through these things as well.   And, like, don't like, we know who all our members are. We have a 100 members.  

[00:41:31] Unknown:

Can you please show the Bitcoin Park for people that don't know, listening?  

[00:41:35] Unknown:

Bitcoin Park is a social club   mixed with a community center, mixed with a co working space, mixed with an event space, mixed with studios for for recording,   located in Nashville next to the 2 major colleges.   It's community supported, so we have a 100,   in state members,   that pay an annual fee, and then we have a 100 out of state members that pay a reduced annual fee.   You get one of those   little key cards that allow you to enter the facility,   anytime you want, 247.   Connections   stopped. Hey, Matt. Can you repeat? Because we I lost you there for a No. It's still recorded because it records locally.   Yeah. But it didn't record on my side. Well, unless it does upload. Right? Yeah. It just uploads afterwards. So I think everyone heard the the Bitcoin Park,   shill, but we're we're about a month and a half old.  

We just had a meet up here yesterday.   Had over 250   people here,   and I guess we had to meet up 2 days ago, and a lot of people stayed.   We have hotels that are close by that we have partnerships with, so you get reduced rates. We're gonna have   private events, public events,   the the whole 9 yards. So very excited about it. So if you are if you are in the Midwest in the United States, consider stopping by.   We'd love to have you.   Very cool.  

[00:43:02] Unknown:

I heard big I heard good things about it.  

[00:43:06] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I I I had a few meetings with people yesterday that were all hangover from,   the interactions that they had at the Bitcoin Park, this week.  

[00:43:16] Unknown:

Yeah. We like to we like to do it right now. More than one. That's why I was thinking through the tab idea.  

[00:43:22] Unknown:

Oh, and and and by the way, the the Bitcoin Magazine office is also in Nashville. Right? Correct.   And, and I heard from them that they love when people drop by.  

[00:43:35] Unknown:

Correct. As well. Yes.   Nashville just got a really strong booming Bitcoin community. It's really cool to see it grow.   I think, the mag now Bitcoin Magazine has   almost 30 employees based in Nashville here.  

[00:43:50] Unknown:

Very cool.   Alright. So now moving on to oh, this lightning network PCB,   there is this guy on,   Twitter, that Twitter add me called sufroid.   Lots of cool PCBs on this account. He said he was going to send me more information about this lightning network PCB. It didn't happen.   But I assume   it's sort of like a lightning,   like point of sale or something with a custom board. Anyways, it looked kinda cool.   The link is on the on the notes if anyone is interested.   Alright.   So maybe this is, where Justin will have some   some comments here.  

I did not spend too much time on it. Space chain by Rubin.   This is a permissionless,   one way pegged Bitcoin side chain.   All value goes to BGC holders,   all fees go to miners, stable coins, NFTs,   low value payments,   DNS,   scams, all the good stuff can go on top of this.   It seemed interesting,   because it it does the one way peg on Bitcoin side chains,   but it did not seem to need anything from Bitcoin to change to exist, which is always welcome.  

[00:45:13] Unknown:

I guess the main trade off here is looking to this? The main trade off here is that because it's a one way peg, you can get in, but you can't easily get out. Right?  

[00:45:21] Unknown:

Yeah. That's that's true for most side chains, right, that are federated or I I don't know how how is the validation of this side chain works?  

[00:45:32] Unknown:

I don't know. I haven't really looked into this very much. I know it's very promising. Their, Telegram,   is one of the best telegrams,   for technical stuff. There's a lot of really interesting  

[00:45:44] Unknown:

there.  

[00:45:45] Unknown:

I know, Reuben just got a, like, a grant.   Who's a Bitcoin core contributor, and,   he's, like, at Dhruv on GitHub and Twitter. So I assume that means he can program well. I don't know.   They just got, like, a a a grant to, actually try to build a space chain.   Because he he he posted, like, a little implementation   that, about 5 months ago that's not it's just like a proof of concept. So it sounds like they're actually trying to build it, which is exciting.   Very cool. Is awesome. We had A lot of it is around, like, trying to get the ecosystem of a shit coin going without the,   creating new tokens. That's basically You know anything you can use.  



[00:46:26] Unknown:

My view on this is that   the market wants a means   to scam everyone. No. Just kidding. That's that's a lot of people. But now the market really wants a means to,   to create essentially a security.   Right?   And, Matt, you're you're fully   muted.   So, anyway, so so the market really wants a means to create a security. Right?   And   and so far, the most successful version of that is the Ethereum shit coin.   But   people really want, you know, a way to to sort of, like, sell shares of whatever their thing is.   As long as we're honest about how centralized that is, I I don't see any problems with that, and I think that should be done on top of Bitcoin.   All the value should be done on top of Bitcoin.  

By the way, the on the list, we have a link to Ruben's presentation, which I hope to watch soon. He was he presented space chains on advancing Bitcoin.  

[00:47:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, it's very similar to drive chains with, like, the   blind the the the merge mining and stuff like that.  

[00:47:38] Unknown:

Mhmm. Well, merge mining is kind of a problem. Right? It has the wrong sets of incentives.  

[00:47:44] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, I think that as far as I understand all the same things would apply here.  

[00:47:49] Unknown:

So it's hopeless.   I mean, maybe it's not. Maybe there is like a few sort of small tweaks that make it so   he actually makes it out.   I don't know. If he got a grant and there's a lot of people interested, it must   be substantially different than drive chain which went nowhere.  

[00:48:11] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, one of the problems with drive chain is that the the implementation that like, there is an implementation, but it's, like, it's, like, 20,000 lines of Bitcoin core code. So it's just,   they've always   you know, Paul's never really found any reviewers for that because it's just, like, it's sort of too much. You know? Right.  

[00:48:32] Unknown:

Alright.   Moving on to,   silent payments.   That picked my interest, but another one that I didn't have a lot of time to look into.   Let's just click here.   How silent payments are bringing new privacy protections to Bitcoin?  

[00:48:53] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's like it's like bit 40 7.   Like, it's kinda like I don't know, like, bolt 12 or any of these where you get, like, a static   well, it's like you get a static thing, a static address that could be paid   into multiple times privacy. Mhmm. So you can't link the payments that are sent to it. And so the way, like, the existing thing that works right now is bit 47,   and so that's anchored in an op return.   And so the the one problem with that is that if you get change from your op return,   and you,   like,   I I think there's, like it it it's, like, kind of assumes that you're in a CoinJoin wallet. Right? Like, in Samurai,   Sparrow,   the project projects that, like, standardize this,   you know, the the the change is just mixed, so it's not a problem to have change from an op return. But,   it's a little it's a little harder with, like, if if you if your wallet can't do, coin joints, then it's bit 47 could potentially be a footgun. That's at least the complaints.  

With,   with I'm just trying to remember exactly. Silent payments, there's no on chain footprint to set it up. Mhmm.   And how it works is that   you publish some sort of a key, and then you have to scan every block that comes in.   And,   there's an algorithm to combine your static key with the like, the first input that pays towards it. And so you have to the receiver has to go scan every block, every transaction,   and check whether the first input to this transaction   combined with your static, you know, address,   like, pays you.  

If it pays, like, you know, it   it like, basically, why this is spendable by you. So it it doesn't have the on chain footprint to set it up, but there's a lot of, operational overhead in terms of, like,   scanning every single block forever.  

[00:50:47] Unknown:

But that's that's kind of like a reasonable trade off. Right? Because   one is, unfortunately we have computers that can just keep on scanning blocks for it.   We already do that for transactions anyways, right?   And the second thing that is nice is that there is no coordinator.   I really like that. If I remember right, with BIP 47, you do need a coordinator. No. You don't need a coordinator.  

[00:51:10] Unknown:

No? That's the whole point. Back.   I I was troubleshooting something.   You you don't you don't need a coordinator for bit 47.   That's the whole point of the opportune,   notification transaction. You and you can recover you can recover directly from seed. Now Samura   and Sparrow,   both have something called PayNIMS   integrated as well. Yeah. That's that's what I thought the coordinator was. No. But that's just a centralized server that connects the BIP 47 payment code to a human readable name.  

[00:51:44] Unknown:

But technically terrible thing because then you're just creating a link between things on a centralized entity. But anyone can run those those servers Yeah. But nobody does. Linked to a BIP 47 payment code. Alternatively,  

[00:51:57] Unknown:

you can just use the BIP 47 payment code. But I don't think that's a valid,   it's not a valid like, when you talk about the trade off discussion between silent payments   and BIP 47, that's not valid because anyone could also make a silent payments centralized server that links it to a human readable name as well.   So that's not really valid for the actual,   like, protocol   conversation.   And then to to what Justin said about   the opportune   change being,   a potential foot gun,   I mean, to me, it's like with the alternative is people are gonna use static reused addresses   that are obviously horrible for your privacy.  

So if if that change is an issue, then the alternative is also horrible. Probably better.  

[00:52:46] Unknown:

Yeah. No. I'm not I'm not a fan of linking,   like, future addresses to   a a human legible thing that is sitting on the server somewhere.   That would just be my   my   non preferred set of trade off.   Assuming you could do the same as silent payments. I don't know. It's nice to have more options.   BIP 47 is quite old, and,   aside from from,   Sparrow Samurai, like, it never really took hold.   So maybe the new one is the sort of set of trade offs or implementation that people like and it takes off.   The the privacy   space in general,   you know, it's unfortunate   that it's so small.  

There is, what,   5, 4000 coins in CoinJoin   on samurai and  

[00:53:42] Unknown:

The the biggest markets is small too. And The the biggest the biggest issue with all these things is, you know, if   if if you if you're thinking about something like BIP 47   or silent payments,   usually, probably the number one use case would be a donation use case,   where, like, you you post the static address, the static code, or the static QR code, you know, on social media or wherever you're gonna post it,   and then people can easily pay you donations. And the number one thing in donations is is you don't want friction. You want you want people to be able to easily pay you. So it comes down to wallet support. Right? And so Yeah. But, Matt, nobody should be doing donations on chain anyways for small amounts because Wow. Sure, today the fees are very low. But generally speaking,   that's what lightning solves. Okay. So then silent payments doesn't solve that issue either is what I'm saying. Right? So, like, the issue is, like okay. So even if you have,   you know, 1 or 2 wallets implement silent payments,   it's still not gonna be useful for a donation use case until you have a a large amount of them doing it so you know that, you know, someone can open   let's be honest, most people are using a lot of people are using regulated custodial services. Like, if you can't pay it with with Cash App or or Kraken or some shit like that,   You're just gonna get way less donations.  



[00:54:59] Unknown:

Here here's a case I like this stuff for.   For example, let's say I have a   a supplier or another partner,   of CoinKite that we do a lot of business together, so we have a lot of sort of, like, Bitcoin transactions back and forth.   It would be nice to have essentially   a a non expub   way of getting new addresses for them,   where we can sort of transact between each other a lot.   So so that's sort of like a case. Okay. So that's fine.   Then you then you don't really need massive wallet support. You just need a wallet that you both agree on. Yeah. Of course. For the donation stuff, I'm sorry, man. But, like, the lightning stuff makes me more and and I'm the lightning bear. Okay. Okay. So And I'm like, I still think the lightning makes a lot more sense for all that stuff because transactions are too small in value. Enrique, I like I pay a lot attention to, like, the donation use case in Bitcoin,  

[00:56:00] Unknown:

partially because, obviously, I make a lot of content that is audience supported and relies on donations,   but also because I've been doing a lot of work with the HRF and activists.   And if you look at it,   like, at the lightning step adds a lot of complexity,   particularly for activists. Right? So if you look at the Canadian trucker situation,   if they're gonna accept lightning   as their donation use case, they need to figure out how to have an always up node that's hot has hot keys, that has good liquidity No. But I think that Wait one second. So like All the truckers. The truckers didn't want Bitcoin. Okay. But the trucker let's say Guys, not the way Let's say the truckers did want Bitcoin. Bitcoiners.  

[00:56:41] Unknown:

Wait. Hang on. Bitcoiners  

[00:56:42] Unknown:

decided to to to fundraise Okay. But that's not my point. That's not my point. My point is   if if you're an individual   protester somewhere and you wanna accept donations in an adversarial environment,   on chain is uniquely suited for that. They just need a a relatively standard protocol to be able to post something static up there that doesn't reuse addresses.   Because then they don't have to deal with liquidity. They can do it all from their mobile phone. They can keep keys offline if they wanna keep keys offline relatively easily.  

[00:57:13] Unknown:

Yeah. But then none of them are using Dojo, and they are all, like, doxing themselves to a centralized entity.  

[00:57:20] Unknown:

Look. I'm not   once again   once again, this is this is not my point. I think even in an activist scenario, if you use a wallet without your own node   and you're using it through Tor, and it's through on chain,   and you're not reusing addresses It is an improvement.   That that can be very helpful for people in adversarial environments.   And, unfortunately,   we just don't really so   so you made a good point there that Canadian truckers didn't want Bitcoin. Well, let's say they did. Right? Let's say protesters want Bitcoin.   The major takeaway to me of that debacle   was the current landscape, the way it was set up, is there was one large centralized donation pool   managed by, you know, relatively JW for that. Relatively few individuals that then was spread out. Right? So what you really want to see is you wanna see all the individual protesters be able to basically run their own donation campaign. So you have a bunch of little ones.  

Right? And then you start to talk about, okay. So how does enforcement of that look and it becomes whack a mole?  

[00:58:27] Unknown:

Yep.   Yeah. No. It's it's not   it's not a simple problem, and there is just too many trade offs and too many separate solutions. So I I I don't think we have good answers to that yet, but but I think they're coming.  

[00:58:42] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean,   every everyone knows I'm the most   I'm the most prolific Fetterman show now, and we have Justin Moon on the pod. But I I do hope that Fetterman's provide a a interesting,   trade off balance for for activists and protesters in adversarial environments that wanna receive donations.  

[00:59:00] Unknown:

Come on, Justin. That show.   That's Now we're doing a little bit of order.   Yeah. It is. We were going to talk about FedMin, like, later. But you know what? Like, why don't we   why don't we just jump to Fedmint?   I'll switch the order on the notes.   I think I think it's totally worth bringing it up since we're in the topic anyways.   It's a fantastic solution, and Chaumian   servers are not, like, new,   which is kinda great too. It's like proven technology.  

[00:59:37] Unknown:

Yeah. So it's,   in terms of, like, end user experience that Matt is referring to, it's, Chaumian e cache,   Chaumian   mint. So basically, what that means is it's a custodial thing,   where you somebody has to deposit,   some asset into,   a mint using the traditional terminology,   and then you get   a little bear token, a bear IOU.   And so with some magical crypto,   blind signatures,   the,   what the,   the mint sees   when,   a deposit is made is a blinded   message,   and they produce a blinded signature. And then the user is able to unblind the signature, and and turn into just a normal signature. And so when they wanna redeem this IOU, they present this unblinded signature. And so the key thing is that,   whenever,   Mint sees a redemption of an IOU, they can tell that it's real, that it's valid, but they can't tell which deposit it came from. So your anonymity set is everyone else who's deposited,   and not just, like, the moment of actual deposit, any any transfer of these IOUs.  

And so,   that's the idea, and it's the original paper was from, like, 1982.   It's had a checkered history of deployment,   partially because,   generally, you had to have a centralized mint in order to do this because, Fiat doesn't have multisig.   And so Eric Kurian's one of his ideas was that, well,   Bitcoin has multisig, you could make a Federated Chow Me Mint. So, hopefully, it would be,   a little bit less of a honeypot. And so, that's the way that's how Fedi Min got started. It was an attempt to build a a CHOMNI mint and then a federated CHOMNI mint and then,   a CHOMNI mint that, one one problem with this is, like, you get these little IOUs. Right? So if if I'm in one mint and you're in another, we have no way to exchange because our IOUs are different   are, you know, just incompatible.  

So because, you know, we have different   authorities on on on what is and isn't a a deposit.   Lightning allows you basically like a way to settle between these mints.   So,   so, yeah, you could,   there's some   potentially, like, very, you know,   powerful private it's a potentially very powerful privacy tool,   and,   and, yeah, it's, you know, it's it's it's very early. Like, we just so so the little news item here is we just, merged the ability to receive lightning payments.   We've been able to send for a while, but now we can send and receive.   So that gives you an idea of how early it is. We're just trying to get it sorted to work.  

But kind of along the way, like, Fedimint has become very it's it's it's it's really interesting. It's it's it's basically a framework for building federations now. So everything is extremely modular. So right now, there's an unchained wallet, a Chaumy Mint, and then a a Lightning interface.   But in the future, you could build all kinds of things, on top of this. And any sort of app that you want to run-in Bitcoin, if you want to split the trust across   multiple parties, you could do that with Fedimint.   So I think it's, like, an interesting idea that's under explored, so that's why what got me interested in. And then and, yeah.  

That's my show.  

[01:02:45] Unknown:

No. That's that's really cool.   I've always sort of, like, loved the original   sort of,   idea   and   and and concept that, like, Blockstream had way back then about side chains that just took too long to launch   and had maybe the wrong set of trade offs,   But the idea of having a single source of truth, right, where it's Bitcoin,   and then you spin off all the side chains   you know, in a different sort of technology than liquid. Right?   It it's super super powerful and and resolves a lot of problems because, you know, different groups of people may want different set of trade offs, but they probably still want to share the same source of truth.   Right? And Bitcoin provides the best security there is in the game.  

It's, it's it's just nice to see more stuff being actively worked on on this space   that is not just liquid.  

[01:03:44] Unknown:

Yeah. A really cool thing about Fediment is that you could build liquid on top of it pretty easily.   Not easily, but, like, you could do that.   You know, it has, you know, out of the box, it has a consensus algorithm. It has a way of deposits. The deposits work the same way as liquids do.   And,   you know, you you could probably run   some of the some of their code I mean,   Liquid isn't open source, unfortunately.   But, if it was open source, you could just probably run a lot of that code inside of it.   And, you know, to get the confidential transactions, confidential asset stuff,  

[01:04:21] Unknown:

They're HSM closed. Right?   I don't know. I can't remember how much of their stuff is open.   Is there HSM that is closed, right, not Liquid itself?  

[01:04:32] Unknown:

I think the functionary,   the what the functionaries run,   you know, the the people that run each federation server, I believe that's closed source as well. Yeah.   Yeah. That's not great. So That that won't that won't get a job. I'm a I'm a fan of it. I think it's I think it's an interesting I think it's a cool thing.   Like, yeah. I I I like the idea of it, and,   and, yeah, I mean, it's not like to say that this is the you know, it doesn't you know, there's there's   still,   like,   there's a lot of useful tools in Bitcoin. This isn't, like, the the be all, end all. Right? There's no Of course. And I think none of them will. All. So reasons to use   yeah.  



[01:05:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It's,   I I   I I think that when it comes to to networks,   the   the   the   protocol implementation   must be,   like,   open not not GPL, but, like, actually, MIT. Right? It needs to be open in a way   that any party can do whatever he see fits including monetizing it closed.   Right? Yeah. That's how you get networks to expand. Yeah.   But but the the business logic and everything else running on top, that's that's your own business. Right?   So when you build a network that the network implementation   is not open, you're not gonna get buy in. That that's that's a huge, huge problem.  

[01:05:57] Unknown:

You guys you guys keep mentioning liquid.   I'm curious, Justin, on your opinion here. I mean, when I think about pediments, I almost I don't I don't think of it in comparison to liquid. I think of it more   in comparison to, you know, something like, which   is a completely custodial   non privacy preserving from your custodian   lightning wallet on the phone, which   a lot of people are using.   And your project kind of offers you   a way better trade off balance, which is reduced custodial risk   because it's federated and privacy from the custodians because of the Chongqing e cash.   So so to me, I almost I almost compare it more to, like, those lightning wallets that currently exist rather than something like liquid.  



[01:06:46] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. So the that that's I agree with that. It's the the end user experience is gonna be like that, but part some of the reasons that make it   some of the ways it achieves these trade offs is that it works kind of like liquid. So, like, the implementation   is similar to liquid. The feature set at the end from the end user is is gonna be different.   Yeah. I mean, that's the whole point of Chami and Minit. Right? Like It's just what I wanna use from Lightning. Like, what I wanna use from Lightning is a custodial   thing where it always works. I want it to never fail, and, I want it to be private.  

You know?   That's, like, what I want as an end user. So I think this hopefully, we can find something like that here.  

[01:07:29] Unknown:

Yeah. No.   The the idea   of not having to to manage   your lightning   node stuff would be great,   with privacy. Right? Because   you know, it is substantially less monetary value so I don't care about the security as much, right?   So it would be nice to not care about babysitting it either.  

[01:07:53] Unknown:

I really, really hope that we can see something like this resolving the the lightning trade off for Custodio. The other key thing is when you're talking about lightning trade offs is on on the privacy side. Particularly, we're talking about donation the donation use case that we were just talking about,   where you wanna you wanna post something. Maybe you're in an adversarial environment.   All else equal,   receiving privately on lightning is way more difficult than sending privately on lightning. And to that effect, we've actually seen   a lot of privacy minded users. They will they will receive to a custodial lightning wallet, and then they'll send to their own wallet, which is ridiculous and has a lot of foot gun potential, and you're trusting the custodian with that.  

So so a Fedimint wallet could provide   a very   easy convenient user experience that preserves privacy on the receive side,   of lightning.  

[01:08:47] Unknown:

So, Justin, do you see   this specific implementation of Chow Me Mint   being able to   being able to produce, like,   other tokens of types,   like other other   things aside from trying to transport,   essentially, a Bitcoin   UTXO in a way?  

[01:09:12] Unknown:

We'll see. I I hope so.   I hope we can build   other things on top of this. Wait. It's always a question. You're gonna be on consensus  

[01:09:22] Unknown:

with that mullet next year?  

[01:09:27] Unknown:

Well, all bets are off.   I don't know. My my focus is just actually trying to build it, you know, like, the the the other the other interesting thing about Fediment is that it's extremely high quality   server code, you know, like, it's it's written,   in a good language,   Rust.   It's,   the code is very readable. It's very well organized. It's, like, it's it's really good code. Having looked at some of these other projects I won't name, the code quality is higher here.   And so, like,   it's it's a high wire act to build, like, a a daemon like this, that is like, that non technical people could run and it just works for a few years, for example. Right? That's great. Like, that's I I think this project could actually achieve that, that level of quality that, you know, it's hard to get there. So that's part of my reasoning here is I think I think it could   it could,   do a lot of different things, and I think it the the it's gonna be solved through really, really high quality software, which is is not how   like, that's the best way to solve things, and   not a lot of projects solve their problems in that manner. You know, a lot of problem Mhmm. Projects solve their problems by throwing frameworks at problems and throwing all kinds of deployment and all kinds of crazy shit like that, rather than just writing really, really good software that is modular and doesn't crash.  



[01:10:42] Unknown:

Well, it's nice to hear that there is good software being written because it needs to be good software for its sake.  

[01:10:51] Unknown:

Yeah. Alright. Yeah. We'll see.  

[01:10:54] Unknown:

No. It's exciting. I mean, like, I   I you know, there is this sort of, like, mentality a little bit probably because it came from the SharePoint space where everybody needs to, like, create this sort of solutions. They need to talk to each other.   And Mhmm. And and I'm of the opposing view on that. I I I think that's stupid. We already have Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the source truth and it's how you settle. Right? On sort of like your your base settlement layer. Right?   I think we should have had 5 different lightning solutions that don't talk to each other.   You know, like, there were 50 papers for payment channels.  

So if you divide that by 10, you should have had 5 competing implementations that were trying to do different things and don't necessarily interact with each other.   I I think we would be in a much better place right now.   So   it's it's just nice to see more different things being tried. So props to you. Yeah.  

[01:11:49] Unknown:

So if you're if you're talented, give me my final show. If you're a talented Rust developer, that's really what we need. We basically have 4 contributors right now that are consistently,   working on it. So if you're a talented Rust developer and would like to become 1, send me a DM, pop in the discord listed on our GitHub readme.  

[01:12:05] Unknown:

Nice.   And, do follow Justin on Twitter to get updates about   you know, that there is this meme that nobody uses liquid. So there is this new project using liquid. So I figured I I bring it up because,   you know, we all win if all the projects get a lot more use. So   it's called the liquid   Fuji   Fuji money.   It's essentially a place to borrow   Bitcoin backed stable coins, you know, synthetic stocks and all that stuff,   without so it's essentially like a decentralized   way to borrow with some collateral,   to do things.   That that must be   there must be a demand because there is a few of these platforms that they all seem to have enough users to be able to afford to sponsor podcasts and throw conferences. It's basically  

[01:13:05] Unknown:

DeFi and Liquid. Right?  

[01:13:07] Unknown:

Yes.   You know, as much as I'm not a huge fan of that stuff, I I there is a market, and there will always be a market for this stuff. Right? So I rather this stuff being built on top of Bitcoin. That's that's my thinking.  

[01:13:27] Unknown:

My only thought is their graphic design is incredible.  

[01:13:32] Unknown:

What?  

[01:13:35] Unknown:

I was just saying that their graphic design is incredible.  

[01:13:38] Unknown:

Nice.   Well, that's that's good too because, you know, that brings users.   Yeah.   And I like the dot money,   shitcoin TLD. GTLDs are shitcoins, but I have a bunch of them, so   might as well have fun.   Alright.   So,   the unchained guys,   have now a new trading desk,   and,   you know, they are expanding, and,   you can what's what's kinda cool about that is for the people who want a more sort of hands,   hands off approach to their cold storage, these are good people, and and, you know, when when people do transactions and buy Bitcoin, they can put straight into your cold storage   with the vaults that they they do with you.  

I know a lot of,   boomers or or family offices or sort of, like, entities   that may need a third party to handle things   regardless of how we feel about that.   So it's just nice to see that there is sort of like this more vertical integrations on on how people handle these things because it does reduce the attack surface a lot.   So,   good for them to do this.   What else?   Bitcoin has merged on Taproot.   Justin, do you have opinions?   I don't.   No.   Yeah. It's just just adding   essentially test factors for taproot.   I figured it's worth worth mentioning.   So Kaza,   Kaza now has an API for people to integrate   their solution into.  

You know, again, more interesting stuff happening. Like, these products are trying to sort of like find their niche and sort of expand.   I like the idea of people trying different things.   What else? I mean, interesting one here. Yeah. Go ahead. Interesting one here was Hoseki.  

[01:15:41] Unknown:

Hoseki is a startup, like, just doing proof of reserve. Yes. So it's it would be kind of interesting to see, you know, like, if you could,   you know, like,   you got your cost of balance, and then your house equity produces a proof of reserve, and you can go, you know, get a small business loan or something, stuff like that. I think that's kinda cool to see how it's,  

[01:15:59] Unknown:

the stack of So little so here's the problem that I have   is that just traditionally speaking,   just proving that you have the coins   probably won't get you alone.   I think they're gonna wanna hold that collateral.   Because the problem with Bitcoin as collateral is that Bitcoin is extremely soluble, right? So technically I could just run away with it.   And the reason why traditionally people use real estate as collateral is because you can't run away with it.   So Yeah. But then I think I think we're ways off from having Bitcoin collateral sorry, Bitcoin being used as proof of   reserves, proof of fact that you have money to pay back a loan without  

[01:16:40] Unknown:

the counterparty having ways of taking that collateral. First of all, it's 2 different like, it's not all or nothing.  

[01:16:47] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:16:48] Unknown:

I mean,   you were you were excited about the proof of reserves for that guy's private club, like,  

[01:16:55] Unknown:

you know, 15 minutes ago. Wait. Wait. No. No. No. My  

[01:16:59] Unknown:

uh-uh. That was collateralized. So the the the bar person holds your SATS card with your collateral on it. Okay. It's a very instrument. The second thing is, first of all, as you can see, I I can see a world at least in the beginning where there's a combination where,   maybe you see something like Unchained,   or huddle huddle where where it's a non rehypothecated   multisig   custody   mixed with additional proof of reserves.   Also, when when you when you do go out for loans, a lot of times,   they they just wanna see, like, a a level of income or,   you know, what stocks you hold. They'll ask you to get, like, a brokerage account sign off or you're trying to get a rental somewhere,   and they want they wanna see if you're actually able to pay your rent for for a year going up. You know who I met. Maybe that landlord maybe that landlord would would see that and be like, okay. Well, you know, this person at this time has proved,   that they have, you know, a couple $1,000,000   worth of Bitcoin, obviously, they can afford the $3,000 a month rent.  

I'm gonna approve them for this. The second thing that's really cool about this is because it's, you know, using the native fact that that you have these crypto cryptographically verifiable signatures.   Once you do that proof of reserves,   whoever your counterparty is can see if you've moved those assets. Right? And they know in a verifiable way that you've moved your assets. So there are a lot of advantage there as compared to something like a brokerage account saying, oh, like, he owns 200 shares of Apple stock or something like that.  

[01:18:31] Unknown:

So so so one one thing I've sort of   re I realized in the last sort of year, let's put it this way,   like, looking around the loans, playing around with those Bitcoin backed loans and stuff,   and talking to a lot of,   like,   like, loan brokers,   essentially.   And and I finally sort of really internalize   why   they like traditional assets is because of the friction.   Right? If you want to liquidate all your stocks and get the money back,   it takes a few days at a minimum.   Right? And some brokerages will take, like, even longer than that, for for your little stuff.   So,   and   and that friction buys   counterparties   time   for trying to get   trying to get litigation done. And and there is more than that.  

When you liquidate some of those assets that already takes time, they go to your bank account which is also capturable. Right? So it's a whole chain of capturable stuff. That's how the whole legacy world works.   With with the new Bitcoin world, nothing is capturable and everything is low friction. Right? So technically, it could be in in a different country the next day with all your collateral.   So the the flight risk is a lot higher.   So I personally think it could be a little harder   for   for for Bitcoin to be used as collateral without having it as a share custody or something. However,   the idea of being able to prove that you have a certain net worth will be easier for things that are forward going like rent, for example, proving that you have enough cash flow to pay rent.  

That'd be harder for loans, but easier for things like the the the the rent situation. Yeah. I mean, look, everything obviously has trade offs. I think,  

[01:20:34] Unknown:

easy proof of reserves,   in with Bitcoin. Like, look. Bitcoin natively already has proof of reserves. You can just sign a message. Right? That's that functionality has been around forever. Now when you're talking about,   people that are not necessarily   very in tune with the Bitcoin world, They wanna see some kind of they want an easy flow. They want a certification process. They want all these other things. Right? And that's kind of where Hoseki comes into play.   I I think,   I I I agree with the trade offs you've mentioned,   but there's also some novel improvements there over   the the way a lot of this legacy stuff works. Right? The legacy stuff, like, there there's a situation where,   obviously, like, if if, a brokerage account had, like, an open API or something or API   agreements with lenders,   that lender could have real time balance,   updates and and can tell, like, if you're liquidating your stuff or not.  

That's not really the world we live in. You you basically, like, print out a brokerage statement,   and you bring it to the bank or you, like, fax to the bank or whatever, and they couldn't literally photoshop it. Yeah. And they put it in a filing cabinet. Right? And send it to them. Right. But Bitcoin Proof of Reserves and   and a a project like Hoseki,   could make that   could make that, you know,   significantly improved in different ways   in a very interoperable easy way. Right? Because you you have this interoperable standard that is the Bitcoin blockchain.  

[01:22:09] Unknown:

I I do love the idea of anonymizing   the, essentially, the the   the the proof of ownership or or or the collateral size. Right? Like, or proof of reserves, really. Anonymizing that is a huge deal as well   so that he can use this essentially, like, you know, just just this hash or signature   to to prove something without actually showing the addresses or anything to a third party. That that's it's it's kinda similar to DIDs in a way. Right?   You have a more transportable,   anonymized thing that is just is just better for everyone.   Alright. Oh, here's one that I don't I didn't have time to to look into it or or get the links, but I I wanted to add to the list is Robosats.  

I I've heard this sort of going around a bit.   It seems like people are into it. I know nothing about it.  

[01:23:04] Unknown:

Robosats is a pretty cool project. I'm I'm   I'm pretty excited about it.   It's basically   a, you know, a lightweight,   p to p exchange for Bitcoin to fiat. Presumably, it could be, you know, Bitcoin to other things as well in the future, but right now it's Bitcoin to fiat.   It runs all internally in your browser,   with everything done locally, So the lift is very low. You can use it from mobile. You can use it,   from desktop. You can use it from an iPad or something.   And it default it you have to use Tor. It's, it's an onion link. So the whole project runs behind Tor and defaults to Tor.   So you   have relatively   decent privacy guarantees. You have low lift, easy UX,   pretty convenient, and it's run by NIMS, which you love to see with a project like this. It's actually very easy to monetize because they just collect fees, so it's sustainable. It doesn't have to rely on open source funding, like grant funding or something like that.  

It is an open source project. They did something really cool with so you generate your keys when you first load it up.   Those keys are used for everything.   Obviously,   oh, the whole thing is is lightning only.   They do have swap out functionality, so you can withdraw to an on chain address, but by default, it's all lightning.   And they use those keys actually for   the messaging platform. So you have, like, a chat messaging when you're doing the exchange.   Every message is not only end to end encrypted, but it's also signed. So when you do have disputes and you have to go to the RoboSats   mediator,   it's not like he said, she said screenshots. It's all cryptographically   signed messages.  



[01:24:47] Unknown:

That's pretty cool.  

[01:24:50] Unknown:

I I I yeah. I mean, it's just it's compare it to best?  

[01:24:54] Unknown:

Yeah. Exactly. It's it's it's trying to solve the same problems that BISK is trying to solve,   but BISK on their trade off model tried to make, basically make something that is is is more censorship resistant or more regulatory resistant,   while Robosats is like, we can just do this thing centralized,   but we'll do it behind NIMs using Tor,   and and make that lift way way easier so you don't have to run your own node. You don't have to do all these other things.  

[01:25:21] Unknown:

So I guess the risk there is just capture. Right? If,   if, if something that the state doesn't like goes through it, they would just sort of go to the server, see who has the credit cards there, and,   and go after them.   But they don't really have any information about the users anyways, so it really is a sort of it's a it's what I like to call a cat and mouse project. It's it's kinda it's I hope they stay around for long enough. I don't like making this example because it, like,  

[01:25:47] Unknown:

implies implicit   criminal activity, which I I don't think this project's about. State may deem anything illegal. No. Yeah. I know. But where I was going with it is, like, the trade off model is similar to most darknet markets is what I would say. Right. Right? Okay.  

[01:26:02] Unknown:

Yep.   Cool.  

[01:26:06] Unknown:

I said it all happens in the browser versus,   Bismar app?   Probably Yeah. You don't have to install anything. Heavy ass Java.   Yeah.  

[01:26:17] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, Bisk also has a ton of technical debt. This is all,   you know, brand new and and built from scratch.  

[01:26:25] Unknown:

Well, I mean, also  

[01:26:26] Unknown:

is old. Right? There's this and one other project that's currently in stealth, that I'm not allowed to talk about,   Both trying to tackle the same thing, which   is p to p Bitcoin trades,   without KYC, and I I think the future's bright there. I'm I'm pretty excited about it.  

[01:26:44] Unknown:

What what's really nice about this is, you know, the state completely failed at taking down dark markets.   Even being centralized, just 50 pop up after.   So,   you know, with with a new way of sort of   implementing these things based on Bitcoin, based on lightning,   you know, you'll be you you'll get to a point where they'll just give up. Right? Like,   it's kinda like, you know, become selective enforcement where if there's a dude smoking pot on the street,   like most people, like police doesn't give a fuck, and then, you know, they would just pick 1 guy that they don't like to to deal with it.   Not that there is anything illegal about what people are doing, but just realistically speaking, that's how the states, that all the the state actors behave. Right? They just when they cannot make something captured,   they will just do selective enforcement.  

100%. Mhmm.   Even worst if you think about it, but,   alright. So this is the other part of the show. If you haven't been bored to death yet,   we're moving on now to the Bitcoin off tech newsletter,   which is even even even more boring.  

[01:27:55] Unknown:

We probably have dozens of listeners still with us at this point.  

[01:27:59] Unknown:

Yes.   I I know there's just one And your wife will probably drop by this point? All all the wives are dropping at this point. Oh, she dropped after the fact that there was no intro.   All right.   So,   so Bitcoin uptech,   people that don't know is a fantastic sort of, source of, of Bitcoin information, especially about core.   It has commentary in it.   I'm a big fan. It's dense   even though it's still a summary of what actually happens. We're not gonna go through point by point. We're just gonna sort of like pick at it.   Since they have one newsletter per week,   so I have the last 3 weeks that we missed sort of like listed here. I just figured we just sort of, like, glance over just because there's a few things that are worth glancing over.  

And if you guys have comments or wanna take tangents on any of this stuff, be my guest.   Alright. So   this one is really cool.   I had added earlier   on the noteworthy part, but I moved it down because just to compress everything.   I'm pretty excited about this. So half aggregation   of BIP 3 40 signatures. So it's essentially,   half aggregation   of Schnorr signatures.   It was Jonas Nick, I think he says Nickler   on Twitter,   and   it's under block streams work.   This is this is kind of like a a huge deal because it's gonna bring a lot of privacy,   a lot   of efficiency in transactions.  

It's still early work.   And actually the best way to describe it really is it's non interactive   half aggregation of signatures.   And one of the parts that I'm most excited about this is the non interactive part.   So, essentially,   interactive signatures require all the parties to essentially be,   for for lack of term, online   together at the same time,   resigning   each other's stuff,   which creates, like, huge UX problems.   It creates security issues.   It makes it for very,   a very hard thing to do in in in the real world.   And this solution removes the interactive part. So now each party can do their own bit of the signing by themselves in their own privacy   of their own, tinfoil hat environment.  

And then the half aggregation part, maybe Justin can have some opinions, but,   essentially what they're doing here is they're aggregating signatures because Shor is linear.   So you can just put all the signatures together and make it look like a signal signature, which is not possible with the current   Bitcoin's back.   So,   this this is gonna open a lot of doors,   for MoonSig and other things like that that still don't have a back.   And,   this is,   it's a   very, very big,   improvement to Bitcoin itself,   even though it's gonna move at Bitcoin glacial pace. So even though we're excited, just don't get too excited to start using anytime soon.  

[01:31:19] Unknown:

Opinions, guys? So when you're doing music now, does the signature get bigger? The more   does this sound like the signature would get gets bigger?  

[01:31:29] Unknown:

I don't think it does. I mean, not if they're aggregating them in the Schnorr way. Right? It's supposed to just be, at the end of the day, just a single signature.   But if I remember right, I haven't been following   for a little while, like half the size of the original  

[01:31:44] Unknown:

signatures  

[01:31:45] Unknown:

individually? But,   I think so. But but the biggest issue is I don't think there is a   formal mousseg implementation   or spec yet.   I think there's just sort of, like, ideas and commentary. There's no actual Moosig.  

[01:32:09] Unknown:

I think there's a spec. Like, I know in in the Rust community, there's a a Blockstream has a a a project called   secp256k1dashzkp.   It's not Yeah. Like, their testing grounds for stuff. Like, that's where Shmoor showed up a couple years ago, and then, now it moved over. So It's not just, I don't think it's Blockstream. I think that's just the the experimental version of Libs tech. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's I think the the the spec is pretty good for music too in my understanding. Like, stuff like frost and roast are still Right. Being,   that that allows it with with, like, k of n. Right?  

So n of n, I think, is pretty well defined, but k of n is still is still they're still trying to figure out. And that's pretty heavily interactive, which sucks.  

[01:32:52] Unknown:

Yes. The the interactive part,   it's gonna be   nearly   impossible   or it's gonna be essentially server with server talking. Like,  

[01:33:02] Unknown:

I I still might not ever work with cold storage.  

[01:33:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Like,   essentially, you're gonna have to be connected in order to achieve the level of interactivity you need. So so that's why I was essentially pretty excited about the noninteractive part of of this solution,   which which works for   for cold storage.   So yeah. So there is that. This is this is dense stuff. So if you wanna, you know, go read more,   I have lots of links on my notes, and,   the OpTech guys do have more summary on it, if I remember right.   So so go read about that.   So that's that's the notable part that I wanted from the their last   newsletter.  

Now from the one previous   to to a 107,   So they brought up the long term block reward funding, which I wanted to bring up just because the amount of noise on it. I still think that the emissions   is,   it it will cause more problems than it's worth. I mean, you could still debate if that's if   if reward issues are true or not, which I don't think they are, but it is debatable.   The solution around having   data emissions   is is a no go   because once you open the door,   who decides how much reward is enough reward?   And and that just essentially becomes a   a absolute pit of sorrow.  

So I don't think you'll ever go there. My solution personally is just   decrease the block size, make scarcity higher on block space and problem resolve,   and we get more decentralization   with that too.   Guys, if you have an opinion on on on Telecommunications, now is the time.  

[01:35:01] Unknown:

I mean, I just think I think that it's it's,   it's just not on the table   as a   possible thing unless, like, the system has basically failed. You know, like, if Bitcoin just can't is getting massive, 200 block reorgs, and until stuff like that happens, I don't think I don't I don't see how this could ever get  

[01:35:20] Unknown:

it how this would ever really happen, You know? Yeah. It's it's it's it's mental masturbation to talk about it so early.   And then besides that, there's really no reason for any kind of debate because   anyone can fork Bitcoin whenever the fuck they wanna fork Bitcoin.   And if you wanna fork and a tail emission, you can fucking do it, and we'll see how the market responds to that. And and this idea that   Bitcoin adds a tail emission is, in my point of is in my perspective is is the wrong framing.   Because if   there is a fork of Bitcoin with a tail emission if there's a fork of Bitcoin without a finite amount of Bitcoin,   there will always be the other chain, the existing chain, that doesn't have that in it. And there's pretty much zero situation that I could see   where where, you know, that that original chain doesn't, you know, win that fork war,   but   there's even less chance   that there would be, like, a complete wipeout and you just wouldn't have that other chain in addition to it. Someone would end up changing their algo. Some you know, their hashing algo or something like that. But I I would say that I actually if we're gonna keep talking about this,   I would love to see, some, you know, really, really wealthy backers of this tail emission idea so we could get a nice sizable   sizable dividend on that fork when it happens?  



[01:36:45] Unknown:

Yeah. I I mean, I I am not opposed to airdrops. I think airdrops are healthy.   It's a I see it as a Bitcoin dividend.   So,   so I I am I totally   in favor of this.   I just have a feeling that, the dividend will be so low that it won't be worth our while because,   you know, ideally, you move the funds from your keys before you do that, so,   not not not worth the while.   You know, my dear friend Peter Todd   is probably bored at this moment, so he is championing,   daily missions.   Peter, I think you should go maybe climb a taller mountain.   Love you very much.  

Now moving on to   okay. So there is a new regression tests,   for RPC. I think these are related to Taproot.   Oh, it's to help l two protocol   and other applications   who wanna use package relay on core.   See   so here's one thing I don't like. I think we brought up on the last episode.   Drama.   The the idea of making RBF not default. RBF should be default because double spend is possible in Bitcoin by default.   I so I like I like RBF to be the default because it's essentially just formalizing something you can do   regardless if people agree with you or not.  

[01:38:26] Unknown:

I mean, the only reason you wouldn't want that is if is if you want, like,   the standardness rules to allow you to do   0 conf transactions   easier. Right? That's   Yeah. But basically the only   It doesn't matter. It can suit people. Yeah. Exactly. That's a really bad It's a problem. That's a that's a really bad reason.  

[01:38:46] Unknown:

Yeah. Like, it it it You shouldn't you shouldn't have the relay nodes of the network protecting your 0Conf transaction. Let's just just using it wrong. The way I like to say it is 0Conf is not Bitcoin because it's not your Bitcoin yet.  

[01:38:59] Unknown:

Yeah. I actually heard Wiz It's almost like sorry. Go ahead. I heard Wiz put it in an interesting way. I mean, you know, Wiz runs, the most popular mempool in the world.   He calls he calls,   transactions that are in the mempool, like, you know, 0 confirmation transactions. He calls that layer 0, and then you hit layer 1,   once they're confirmed,   which I thought was interesting framing.  

[01:39:24] Unknown:

Yeah. The the the RBF and 0 Conf discussions   is essentially like Sheikoiner   mindset sipping through Bitcoin,   which does sipping through lightning a little too much.   It's like, sorry, like, the whole point of Bitcoin is finality.   Pre finality is not your fucking coins, so don't do anything with it.   Anyways,   it   it is a topic that annoys me because it's essentially rehashing the whole   b cash bullshit all over again for different reasons.  

[01:40:02] Unknown:

We're just it's always gonna be eternal September with all this shit.  

[01:40:06] Unknown:

Yeah. No. It it's yeah. You never will be with  

[01:40:09] Unknown:

block size. I don't know if you've noticed, like, on on Twitter lately, I just I barely even tweet anymore. I just retweet stuff from years ago.   Because did you you mostly just you can mostly just go back, and you have the response already ready over there.  

[01:40:24] Unknown:

I need a bot   that essentially   searches   for the the the trending tweets of the day and then go finds tweets of mine from, say, 7 to 8 years ago minimum.   And it finds the correct response for that and it posts as a response  

[01:40:42] Unknown:

onto those tweets. I'd pay sats for that.  

[01:40:45] Unknown:

Yeah. Right? Bounty.   Where's okay. Fine. We're gonna put another bounty on bitcoin bounties.org.   Okay.   So   next is,   oh, so,   we have a a merge,   for adding   Taproot,   additional fields on PSPT, so PSPT evolving.   BDK   is setting up   in lock time of new transactions now.   Okay, so is that   a Centifree sniping solution. Okay,   yeah.   You guys have any opinions on that?  

[01:41:32] Unknown:

It's a good thing to do.   Yeah. I mean, it just it just basically says this is the like, if the current block time is act or block height is x, it just says, hey. I'm not allowed   to be mined in any block before x   just so just to discourage a minor from, like, doing an intentional reorg to to get some   some more fees, like, which is a valid like, this is kind of a valid   complaint in, like, a low fee environment as if if,   minor Yeah. Incentivized   to reorg a little.  

[01:41:59] Unknown:

Right. But they could still mine it if they want to.   I don't know. It's one of those things.   It's like one of those things. It's like, okay. Yeah. It's   cute, but I don't think it will do anything network wide.   Maybe if you became the center for most wallets.  

[01:42:20] Unknown:

I mean, I guess it's It's it's it's it's if hash isn't attempting to extend the chain, if it's doing other things, that's Yeah. The the better framing would probably be fee sniping resistant. Right?  

[01:42:30] Unknown:

Because obviously after that block, you could still do fee sniping.  

[01:42:35] Unknown:

Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.  

[01:42:39] Unknown:

Alright.   The 206 which was the previous to the previous to the previous.   No. The previous to the previous. That's just 2 previous of previous.   Okay. What is the largest, multisig quorum currently possible? Andrew Chow, did some work on that.   If I remember right, for p 2 sh is 12 out of 12. At least we managed to do that on quinquaint.com   way   back in the day.   I don't know what is,   what is possible now.  

[01:43:11] Unknown:

It says 20, but I've never tried it. In my head,  

[01:43:15] Unknown:

doesn't Electrum allow you to do 16?  

[01:43:19] Unknown:

Yeah. But I I don't think with 16 out of 16.   You wouldn't support that many signatures.   So I think we're essentially what we're gonna write because see, I think the the main problem is is an implementation problem, not a network problem.   So I think, essentially, the the the bottleneck   is always gonna be just the transaction size that will fit the network. That's it. Yeah.   Are you're essentially gonna fill a whole block.   And CodeCard can sign that now.  

[01:43:53] Unknown:

There's something about how objects it works. There's something about how objects it works that Right. I think it gets it slows down. If it gets bigger, it has it's, like, kinda combinatorial or something.  

[01:44:04] Unknown:

Well, the the issue with with,   pre taproot is that it's it's quadratic. Right? So the size of the transaction is exponential.  

[01:44:14] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[01:44:15] Unknown:

So it's very, very easy to get big with multisig,   but Shmoor, it won't matter.   You can make  

[01:44:23] Unknown:

essentially any size. You you can have, like, you know, a 100 signers, and it's still gonna be a single signer. This will be this will be one of the first really interesting things for, like, the Musig Frost Yes. Real type things is, you know, like,   liquid could do a 100 functionaries,   for example. Now it's it's basically the rate limited by how many multisig   people can be in a multisig.   So, you know, that would be kind of an interesting trust model for, you know, if you had, like, a 100 you know, a whole a whole bunch of them, a whole bunch of people. Harder to,   organize some sort of a  

[01:44:54] Unknown:

a defection. So that's it, you know. Well, I mean, especially if you have a contract for, say, your collateralized loan, whatever  

[01:45:01] Unknown:

thing you're doing, like, it would be very interesting to have a lot more players at different weights, on that. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, these things will be best for the stuff that's, like, online, you know, like, for cold storage type things, it sucks because it's so interactive. But for anything that's any any, like, online multisigs,   like, this will this this stuff will be really interesting.  

[01:45:21] Unknown:

I think we managed to bore Matt.   This is success.   I can see him sitting, talking to somebody else in the studio. No. We have like, Bitcoin Park is vibes are high right now.  

[01:45:34] Unknown:

So I have multiple people in the studio with me. I noticed earlier you said, Matt, you're muted. That was intentional because I was talking to people in the studio.   But I'm also I'm also   a crazy person. So right after this 2 hour rip, I'm gonna be doing another 2 hour rip on Ciel Dispatch. So,   a couple of those a couple of those guests in here a couple of those guests are in here, and they can't hear. 1 of them can hear because he's got headphones on, but the other one can't hear. And he's just sitting there just wondering   what the fuck NVK is talking about for so long. So I'm just trying to keep him updated on timing.  



[01:46:09] Unknown:

You know, Matt's goal is to be in every podcast   episode ever   Yeah. Of all Bitcoin.  

[01:46:18] Unknown:

Not not every not everyone in it. Only the good ones. Only the good ones.  

[01:46:23] Unknown:

But they're all good ones.  

[01:46:25] Unknown:

Dude, there's a lot of bad ones. Open your fucking eyes.  

[01:46:29] Unknown:

No. I don't listen to the bad ones. Probably that's why.   Okay. We're almost done with the show guys.   Now, we're just gonna list a few Bitcoin events here because, it would be nice for them to be to get some notability.   So there is the ABDC Bitcoin Design Meetup in Austin.   I I don't know if it already happened.  

[01:46:50] Unknown:

No. It's gonna happen. It's a reoccurring thing.  

[01:46:54] Unknown:

It's a reoccurring. That's why I wanted to bring up because we're designers. Right? Our producer on our other podcast, Robert Hall recap,  

[01:47:01] Unknown:

Carr is   helping spearhead this thing with Paul Miller, future Paul,   and they're really excited about it. I'm pretty excited about the concept.   Basically trying to, you know,   build the same type of communities that we're seeing in Austin with the dev space, but in the design space instead.   One funny thing,   you know, Carr became producer of of Tales from the Crypt,   which is blatant,   trademark infringement on the HBO show. So, like, every single car project now is just all play off. Like,   ABDC   is even the logo looks like the band.   He has, like, Pleb Broadcasting   Service is one of them. Stacker News Live with initials SNL. Like, so he he got completely inspired by Marty for the wrong reasons.  

And I just hope I hope he'd I hope he sees a lot of success with it, but I hope that doesn't blow back on him on the trademark side. I love that dude, though. My car is great. His satire is okay. Yeah. He he'll be fine.  

[01:48:04] Unknown:

Oh, so Bitcoin Magazine has the Bitcoin conference in Amsterdam. Maybe Matt knows the dates. I don't know the dates yet, but I I think I might go.  

[01:48:13] Unknown:

They're the same dates as TabConf,   which is unfortunate.   But I do think they're, you know, different events. One's in Europe, one's in   Is that Meet   America?   It's it's October.   I wanna say   I'm gonna get shit for this, if I get the dates wrong. I think it's October   12 through 14th is what I wanna say.  

[01:48:36] Unknown:

Ugh. I'm probably not going. Man, why don't they listen.   Conference organizers.   Okay?   Listen. Do your conferences   in the North American   winter.   So   essentially   starting post my duck hunt trip,   so after mid   November,   all the way to,   say, March.   Essentially, while the ice is frozen,   it's it's it's good timing for me.  

[01:49:08] Unknown:

What were your dates that you wanted?  

[01:49:12] Unknown:

So essentially, it could be it it could be most of November except when I'm hunt, hunting ducks.   And then   from mid November all the way to end of March, it's all fair game. Gotcha. Gotcha.  

[01:49:25] Unknown:

Well, I mean, there's the El Salvador start a, start a conference as well. Yeah. I mean, you started a podcast. Why don't you start a fucking conference?   Come on. Go all the way. That's that's not a bad idea. I'll tell you one thing. We're not coming to Canada for it, though.  

[01:49:42] Unknown:

The   At that moment, I don't think many would. But, anyway Brazil is one way.  

[01:49:48] Unknown:

Oh, Brazil would be cool.   The   the Amsterdam venue is fucking awesome. Bitcoin Magazine is working with a local Amsterdam team over there. That's one of the reasons why the dates were locked in because they're partnering with them, and those dates were chosen by them.   Which event is which which venue is it? I don't know. It's it's fucking awesome. Secret. It's it's public. I think it's called Westergaz.   It's the venue. It's, like, right on one of the rivers or  

[01:50:16] Unknown:

large canal? Yeah. They are. It's a large body of Everything is a river there. I love Amsterdam. Amsterdam is an awesome city.  

[01:50:22] Unknown:

So if you're interested in that, that's b.tc/conference.   Then at the same time,   TabConf is happening in Atlanta,   run by Michael Tidwell.   That is an absolutely awesome the High signal   high signal conference.   And you can find out more information for that attabconf.com.  

[01:50:46] Unknown:

Okay. I'm gonna add tabconf here. So I was in in bit in in Amsterdam for Bitcoin 2014. We had a booth there for CoinKites. There are some pictures online. It's pretty funny. It's me and Doc Hack sitting on a booth with Bitcoin terminals.  

[01:51:00] Unknown:

You should send me that picture. One of the most professional Bitcoin conferences ever. What? Send us that picture on signal. I'm curious.   I after the show, you don't have to do it right now.  

[01:51:09] Unknown:

Yeah. I know. It was, it was something. There was this Hard to imagine the 2 of you, sitting at a booth.   I know. Right? And no. Here's the best part. There was this guy, I'm not gonna mention names,   from way back then from, like, the the Bitcoin talk forums.   He shows up slightly inebriated.   He buys 50,   CoinKite terminals   at the booth,   And he   he you know, we're like, you know, it's gonna take, you know, like a month or 2 for this to go. It's like a skid.   And he's like, yeah, whatever. He ships to his hotel in in Amsterdam.   Right? Like, he's staying for the conference. 2 months later, the terminal   they're stuck in costumes.  

And this guy's like, oh, I don't want it. I don't want it. It's like, oh, like, dude, like, you know, dude. Anyways,   fun stories from back in the day. He got kicked out of the conference because he was too drunk.   And, oh,   who was it? I think it was   was it Coinbase that had a booth with a keg on it? Anyways,   fun, interesting days, guys.   Alright. So next one is,   also keep an eye for adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador.   I don't have the date, so go check the show notes. That's November  

[01:52:25] Unknown:

that's November,   like, 14th or something like that, I think. Right. That's my duck hunting trip.  

[01:52:32] Unknown:

And,  

[01:52:33] Unknown:

and then there's BDC as Azores. And you left off Riga. Riga is not listed here either. That's September   1th 1. Did he just disconnect? He's just gonna be back. Conference.   You forgot about Riga as well.  

[01:52:47] Unknown:

Oh, yes. There is also Riga. Riga is a great conference  

[01:52:51] Unknown:

run by the Huddl Huddl team. Riga is a beautiful city.   Everyone speaks English. Very cheap.   Good beer.   Good food.   I think that's September,   like, 1st to   6th or something like that.  

[01:53:07] Unknown:

Yeah. We did manage to we've learned that the bar will stay open as long as people are still at the bar, and we kept one of the bars open.   They had to buy the beer from the other bars because we we emptied their stock.   That was a fun night.   Oh,   so one of the last updates here,   our good friend Matthew Basinski   who runs,   like,   it's a sec well, it's what's it? Bitcoin, crypto voices on Twitter? You changed you changed the name to Porkopolis   Economics. Yeah. Porkopolis.   Terrible name too. I keep on telling him just big bases money dot org. But anyways Or it should just be Bitcoin Voices.   Sure. I told him that too. But but anyways, so so Matthew is probably the only person on earth that has the correct,   money supply,   the basis money for each currency.  

Everybody all has the wrong and wrong by a lot.   He's the foremost expert on this crap.   And, he puts incredible,   incredible,   work out there and reports.   A lot of the stuff he releases free,   and,   he has an interesting thread on why CBDCs has long   come. I highly recommend people checking out if they're interested in this stuff.  

[01:54:30] Unknown:

Yeah. I mean, Matt Matt is fucking awesome, and he has to   the governments don't make it and the central banks don't make it easy for him. He has to go manually scrape all this information most of the time. So Oh, yeah. No. And he recalculates and he runs the numbers, man. He's the only person who does it for this stuff.  

[01:54:48] Unknown:

People buy his reports to do big things.   So, yeah, guys. That's that's all I had before the show closing. Do you guys have anything, any stuff you're working on that you want people to know,   places to find you?  

[01:55:03] Unknown:

If you somehow first of all, MBK, it's always a pleasure to join you.   I have   pretty strong assumption that you're gonna have me on for   the next episode as well. But if you're somehow listening to this podcast and not my other 2 podcasts, consider searching CITIL Dispatch and Rabbit Hole Recap on your favorite podcast app and clicking subscribe.  

[01:55:26] Unknown:

Matt is feeling the competition.   You know, this was born because rabbit hole recap does not cover software updates. Dude, just launch your own fucking conference.   I don't have time for that. I have to build products, you know.   Justin, what do you have to say, sir? Conference.  

[01:55:46] Unknown:

Oh.   Join us at chat   chat.fediment.org.   Join our Discord,   especially if you know how to use, Rust.  

[01:55:57] Unknown:

Okay. So Justin has 2 things to say to you, Fedmint. And if you do Rust, go work for him.  

[01:56:04] Unknown:

No. Work with with.  

[01:56:06] Unknown:

With. Just my team. No. For Justin. Justin is a smart guy. Go work for him. He would be a good boss.   There's nothing wrong with that.  

[01:56:14] Unknown:

Yeah. Own it. Own  

[01:56:16] Unknown:

it.   From it. Anyways, guys, I am I am   extremely   grateful that the 2 of you joined me for   this incredible   2 hour boring read of all this updates that we barely covered half of what's happening in Bitcoin.   I hope that,   you will unsubscribe and unlike my show,   and you'll tell all your friends to do the same,   and, I refuse to,   introduce myself.   Find me at nvq on Twitter.   And,   the I created a telegram for the show is Bitcoin Review Pod.   The link is on the site.   The Twitter for this show is Bitcoin Review HQ   because pod doesn't fit.   And,   the email is [email protected].  

My idea with this is to   get   project maintainers   to get off their asses and send me a   shareable   so long didn't read version of this,   of their of their updates.   Ideally, as a comment on the GitHub pull request for the show's new episode notes.   And, we want to show   things that people are working on on this space. Like nobody talks about the actual project.   They just talk about macro crap   and the price   and   mining and other things I'm not interested on. So   please let me know about your projects. I really, really, really wanna talk about them even if it's completely, ignorantly   on this pod.  

And if I can, I will keep on bringing guests?   You know, maybe Matt will make it to the next one. Maybe he won't. You won't find out until you listen to the next show. Look. If you rug pull me, I might have to launch another podcast. So we'll see what happens.  

[01:58:14] Unknown:

Wait. How many podcasts do you already have? Like, you know, there's there's history there. It's not an empty threat.  

[01:58:22] Unknown:

That is true, actually.   Anyways, guys, thank you so much.   I need to pee now.   Alright.  

[01:58:35] Unknown:

MVK's closing statement was I need to pee now. That was the last thing on the podcast.  

[01:58:44] Unknown:

I mean, it's true.  

[01:58:47] Unknown:

So I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure it just   uploaded my local version,   that Zencast recorded. There until everybody's uploaded because I don't trust this shit. I'm I'm also saving the m p 3 that my computer recorded. And then starting at 11 minutes, I recorded locally to my mixer too. So I have   I have 2 local copies, and I think one local copy went to you. And your Internet fucking sucks, bro.  

[01:59:14] Unknown:

Knowing